Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I express my disappointment that the Minister for Justice and Equality is not here because this issue started off as an oral question which was incorrectly disallowed. I was, therefore, given priority for-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I beg the indulgence of the Deputy to explain that the Minister for Justice and Equality was attending the funeral of Mr. David Black in Northern Ireland.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister. I express my apologies.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister, Deputy Hogan, is taking this issue.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I appreciate that this topical issue has been chosen. Following several parliamentary questions and some media attention on the matter, statistics from the CSO show that there has been a significant drop in the number of convictions for white collar crime since 2003. Given everything that has happened over those years, I find it disturbing and have raised this as a topical issue because the people deserve an answer as to why this has happened and an assurance that people who engage in white collar crime are pursued and punished with the full force of the law.

The statistics provided by the CSO show that for a certain number of white collar crimes, specifically fraud, deception and false pretence offences, falsification of accounts, offences under the Companies Act, offences under the Investment Intermediaries Act, offences under the Stock Exchange Act, moneylaundering, embezzlement, fraud against the European Union and corruption involving public officeholders, the conviction rate has halved over the past decade.

I am sure the Minister will agree this is alarming. He may say there is a discrepancy in the way crimes are recorded and that there may be a time lag but I do not believe this argument stands up. Even after one takes this into account, it still does not explain why the conviction rate has fallen so much in seven years. For example, the average conviction rate for the three years to 2010 is less than half the conviction rate in 2004.

An article in The Sunday Business Post in early October put it in even blunter terms in that almost nine out of every ten white collar crimes committed in Ireland in recent years failed to result in a conviction. It went on to show, based on these figures, that white collar crime is growing in Ireland but convictions are falling. Again, I must stress that the average conviction rate for the three years to 2010 was less than half of what it was in 2004. This needs to be tackled urgently.

As the Minister knows, the people are seething that so much white collar crime goes unpunished while, at the same time, ordinary criminals go to prison for stealing from supermarkets and for burglaries. I put it to the Minister that it would be very good for the public and for our democracy for it to be shown that white collar crime is pursued and punished with the same rigor of the law as any other form of theft or crime. From these figures, it is clear that this is not happening.

We cannot have one law for the rich and another for the poor. I know the Minister for Justice and Equality agrees with this general contention of mine and I welcome the fact he recently ushered in new legislation to strengthen the hand of the Garda in tackling white collar crime. I also know that we, as legislators, cannot interfere with the Office the Director of Public Prosecutions or the operation of the courts but for the sake of justice and to re-establish faith in our judicial system, we must see greater levels of conviction for white collar crime.

When one thinks about it, if the conviction rate for other forms of crime was as low as it is for white collar crime, there would most likely be anarchy on the streets with criminals running entire areas at a whim. Is it any wonder that Ireland was described as the wild west of European finance during the bubble? Based on these figures, it should not surprise anyone. Let us put an end to this and ensure that those who commit white collar crime are in fear of the law, are pursued by the law and punished by the law just as every other criminal should be.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Again, I apologise on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality who was at a very important and sad event in Northern Ireland today.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I understand that.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the Minister, I thank Deputy Dowds for raising this important matter and assure him the Minister attaches the highest priority to the investigation and detection of white collar crime and to ensuring that An Garda Síochána has available to it the necessary legislative and other supports to this end. I, too, share Deputy Dowds's genuine concern regarding this matter.

Within eight weeks of taking up office, the Minister moved urgently to draft additional legislation which was enacted on 2 August last year as the Criminal Justice Act 2011. This Act provides vital assistance to An Garda Síochána in the completion of current white collar crime investigations as well as providing assistance to it for investigations to be undertaken in the future.

Moreover, the Minister is being briefed on an ongoing basis by the Garda Commissioner on the progress of the major white collar crime investigations which are underway. The Minister has sought and received assurance at all times that the necessary resources and expertise are available to An Garda Síochána to effectively investigate these matters.

As Deputy Dowds will be aware, charges have been brought against a number of persons under the Companies Act 1963 arising from the investigations into Anglo Irish Bank. Further directions are awaited from the Director of Public Prosecutions in regard to the other strands of the investigation. A full Garda team remains assigned to the investigation to conduct necessary follow up and other inquiries. The Deputy will appreciate that the important thing now is that nothing be said which would in any way risk the possibility of prejudicing any current or future criminal proceedings.

The Minister is aware that the Deputy has previously raised the question of conviction rates in the context of white collar crime and believes that great care should be taken in comparing conviction rates between different years. The investigation, detection and prosecution of any offence may take a number of years. This is particularly so where the crime may be complex, as is often the case in fraud and white collar crime offences. Accordingly, the initial conviction rate for any given year will inevitably appear lower than the eventual rate.

In particular, the figures produced by the CSO should not be read as a final picture with respect to all investigations or prosecutions but rather a snapshot of proceedings at a particular point in time. The most recent published figures for detections and convictions in 2010 are a snapshot of the position as it stood in October 2011 and more detections and convictions will naturally have occurred since then.

The investigation and detection of fraud offences poses particular challenges for investigators when compared with crimes against the person and this is the general experience internationally. In the case of a once-off fraud committed against a consumer, the offence may only become apparent to the victim some time after the event and there may be very little information to help identify the culprits. In the case of online frauds, those responsible may be located overseas. In regard to more complex fraud and financial investigations, the sheer volume of material to be investigated means that it takes much longer to bring these offences to trial than with some other crime categories.

However, the Minister would note that according to the latest CSO figures, 51% of all fraud offences recorded in 2010 had been detected by October 2011 and in those cases where proceedings had commenced, there had already been convictions in 46% of instances. While our crime recording systems are not directly comparable, it is illustrative of the challenges faced to note that the detection rate for fraud offences in England and Wales for 2010-11 is given as 24%.

Notwithstanding these challenges, the Minister is determined that perpetrators be brought to justice. He has taken concrete steps to ensure that An Garda Síochána has the necessary supports to carry out such investigations and has made it clear that any additional legislative proposals the Garda Commissioner may have in this regard will be positively considered.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I accept that the Minister for Justice and Equality takes this subject seriously and, as was said in the reply, that he will ensure the relevant authorities have adequate resources to tackle white collar crime effectively. However, an issue came to my attention today. I have asked a number of people how many accountants, solicitors and barristers are working for the Garda fraud squad. People have offered various guesses but the answer is none. This is a matter of great concern. It is commonsense that if one wishes the Garda to be effective in tackling white collar crime, it must have the appropriate expertise. This must be addressed. I am glad to see the Minister, Deputy Hogan, taking notes as it is important that they are passed on to the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter.

It is important that this expertise is made available to the fraud squad so it can effectively tackle white collar crime. If it does not have such expertise, it will be unable to bring these criminals to justice. I accept the Minister's statement that it is much more difficult to tackle this type of crime than other forms of crime. In an effort to be constructive and helpful, has the Minister given consideration to the suggestion put forward by Mr. Frank Daly, chairman of the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal? He gave me the information about the lack of accountants, solicitors and barristers in the Garda fraud squad. He has suggested that, considering there are large numbers of unemployed or under-employed solicitors and barristers, they should be recruited to the fraud squad or the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement to deal with the increasing incidence and complexity of white collar crime. It is a good and constructive suggestion and it should be seriously considered. If the Minister could strengthen the hand of the Garda in tackling white collar crime, he would be doing a tremendous service to the Irish people and the Republic. I know that would be his general intention.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Minister attaches high priority to the investigation of white collar crime and he has taken concrete steps in the short time since being appointed Minister to ensure the Garda Síochána has the legislative and other tools to deal with this effectively. I also indicated that the latest Central Statistics Office data do not reflect a decline in the effectiveness of Garda investigations. There is a time lag in respect of getting the statistics in line with what is happening. However, I accept what Deputy Dowds said about the professional expertise that is required to deal with white collar crime. I will bring the matter to the Minister's attention to see if it is possible for people with a legal or accountancy background, or whatever professional supports are required, to have their skills brought to bear to deal effectively with these crimes. It will bring fairness into the system, as people do not wish to differentiate between petty crime and the very serious white collar crime outlined by the Deputy.