Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Before I ask my questions, it is important that we put on the record of the House our heartfelt sympathy for the Black family. Yvonne Black has been widowed and two young children have had their father taken from them by a heinous, callous crime. It behoves everyone in the House to reject out of hand the flawed philosophy of violence and murder, as it sullies the Irish flag and rejects the will of the Irish people as expressed in the Good Friday Agreement. I call on everyone to condemn this cowardly, murderous barbarity.

I missed the press conference, but I assume that St. James's Hospital has been announced as the selected site. Mr. Fergal Bowers brought it to our attention some time ago. Nevertheless, I welcome the announcement on the selection of a site for the national pediatric children's hospital. We fully support it. All parties have agreed that a children's hospital is required.

I wish to ask a few questions on this proposal. It has been indicated that the timeline will slip into 2017 or 2018. Could the House be given a definite timeline on when planning will begin? What resources and revenue streams will be required to fund the planning and construction phases? When does the Taoiseach envisage the project being completed?

In tandem with the development of the national pediatric hospital, there is a grave concern that the existing children's hospitals could be downgraded. Will the Taoiseach confirm that a funding stream will be put in place to ensure that, while we are awaiting the national hospital's construction, children's services in the other hospitals will not be diminished?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It goes without saying that the House stands united in condemnation of the callous murder of David Black. I made the point at the North-South Ministerial Council meeting the other day, in the company of the Tánaiste and the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister of the Northern Ireland Assembly, that Yvonne Black had lost a husband, her children Kyle and Kyra had lost their father and Ulster had lost a hardworking citizen. We unreservedly condemn this. On behalf of the Government, I was happy to say that the working relationships between the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, and the Minister for Justice, David Forde, between the Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan, and Chief Constable of the PSNI, Matt Baggott, and between the Garda and the PSNI are working exceptionally well at the very highest level.

I hope the perpetrators of this murder are brought before the courts and that justice is, and is seen to be, done. We do not want a return to this kind of callous tragedy and to this senseless kind of murder. All the agencies of this State will be at the disposal of the PSNI and the Northern Ireland authorities to ensure those who perpetrated this are brought to justice as quickly as possible. I thank Deputy Kelleher for raising this. He can take it that the capacity and information available to us is at the disposal of the authorities in Northern Ireland and vice versa applies.

At its meeting today, the Government confirmed that the decision is to build the national paediatric hospital on the site at St. James's Hospital. The Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, has been careful and realistic in his assessment of the timeline for completion of the children's hospital facility in late 2017 or early 2018. Work can commence immediately in vacating relevant temporary structures and buildings on the St. James's Hospital site which currently provide clinical and non-clinical services. The proposed development site for the paediatric hospital can be available within six months with clearance, decanting and enabling works happening during 2013 and 2014. Construction of the new hospital can commence by 2015. Clearly, a design process and a procurement structure must be dealt with and the issue of planning permission and so on must be gone through. It is not a case of being able to give the Deputy a specific month by which the entity will be complete. Suffice it to say, I am glad clarity has been brought to the situation. The Government has made a very clear decision to build the national paediatric hospital on the St. James's hospital site.

I thank everybody who provides care and attention to our children in all the medical facilities. I hope that, despite the great difference of opinion among many medical people at the very highest level, there will be buy-in to the decision of Government. The interest here is to provide the very best facilities for all the children of the island who will avail of the services and staff of the hospital once it is built.

The Deputy can take it that the Minister for Health and the Government are, and will always be, anxious to see that in the intervening period, facilities and resources are made available to the existing children's hospital facilities in order that they can continue to provide the first class care and attention they have always provided despite inadequate resources on many occasions and despite cramped space and other conditions. It is in the country's interest that the Government sees that happens, and it will happen.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I expected the Taoiseach, and I expect all other political leaders, to condemn out of hand the murder of David Black. I welcome the Taoiseach's comments. I know this is cold comfort to Yvonne and her family.

On the issue of the children's hospital, we have concerns. Philanthropy is a way to fund it and the sale of national lottery licence is another which has been earmarked. However, because of the difficult economic environment, there are major concerns, as expressed by some very senior paediatricians and others, that the downgrading of services in the current children's hospitals will be used to fund the stream of resources required for this children's hospital. We need a clear funding mechanism to be put in place in the context of budget 2013 and thereafter.

I refer to the concerns about the charitable status of the national paediatric development board and the issues raised. Will the charitable status of the development board and the guaranteed funding stream throughout the development of this hospital, as opposed to waiting year on year for funding to build this much-needed facility, be addressed as quickly as possible?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It goes without saying that the national paediatric hospital will not be built and opened in 2014 or 2015. Clearly, right through to the end of 2016, the Government will provide Exchequer funding, as has always been the case for facilities and medical personnel to provide care and attention to children who must avail of the facilities at the children's hospitals. That goes without saying. The Deputy can take it that the wind down, as he calls it, of the children's facilities will not happen in the sense that these facilities must be provided and funded parallel to the process of the design, planning, construction and fitting out of the new paediatric facility. It is not a case of, having made a decision to build a new national pediatric hospital, winding down current facilities. That would not be in the best interests of the medical people who work in them and, most important, the children and the services and facilities provided. The Minister for Health and the Government are very conscious of that.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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"Pleased" is the wrong word but I am satisfied to once again put Sinn Féin's position in opposition to the murder of David Black last week. I did so in the North immediately after we got news of his murder. As the Taoiseach will know, the Deputy First Minister set out in very graphic tones not just the Sinn Féin position, or his own position, but the position of the vast majority of people on this island. I join with the Taoiseach and Teachta Kelleher in once again extending our sympathy to, and solidarity with, the Black family.

I welcome today's announcement in regard to the go-ahead for the construction of the new national children's hospital. There will be questions to be asked as we get the detail, in particular about current services which are being starved of funding, but today I would like to deal with a really vexed issue, namely, the fact that senior bankers who were part of the financial crash in 2008 are still getting massive pensions. These banks were given big bailouts of the taxpayers' money to fund their operations. We learned that this money, taken from the taxpayers for a project, was used to fund the pension of former CEO, Eugene Sheehy, for example. He got more than €0.5 million. It is little wonder there is a disconnect between citizens, who are in deep distress, and the elites in our society and that there is a contempt for many politicians as well. Mr. Colm Doherty already got €3 million of a pay-off and he will get a pension of €300,000 when he reaches 65 years, all funded by the taxpayer.

We have the awful situation - one could not make this up - of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, echoing exactly what the Fianna Fáil Minister said that he can do nothing about the pay or the pensions of bankers. The Taoiseach promised something different and said no more blank cheques. He may have seen last week that one of these CEOs treated the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform with contempt. He stonewalled and refused to answer questions.

Again, this is a man who is paid over €830,000 per year and his bank has received €4 billion of taxpayers' money. What is the Taoiseach doing about this? Will he introduce a levy to recoup the payment of these super-pensions and ensure taxpayers' money is not used in this fraudulent way?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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First, in response to the Deputy's comment about the prison officer David Black, and in respect of the comment made by Deputy Kelleher, I have already responded publicly. I was beside the Deputy First Minister when he made his comments in Armagh unreservedly condemning the murder of David Black. He also made the point that the coming together of different elements of so-called dissidents with a warped mentality about the future of this island carries within itself the seeds of its own destruction. I hope the information available to the Deputy First Minister and the Northern Ireland authorities, together with assistance from the Garda in terms of whatever information is available from this side, will ensure that these people are brought before the courts as quickly as possible. That must be seen to be done.

With regard to the children's hospital, there will be a debate on this in the House next Thursday. Deputy Adams will have an opportunity then to ask more detailed questions of the Minister for Health, who will be here for that debate.

On the question of pensions for former employees of the pillar banks, the programme for Government sets out the Government's view that there should be a fundamental review of remuneration in banks that are subject to State support. That review is ongoing since the summer. Some additional assistance has recently been provided by Mercer to that review. The Deputy will have been notified of that by letter from the Minister for Finance some time ago. The Minister for Finance has set out clearly the legal constraints on him. The position is that these people retired from the banking sector prior to this Administration taking office. I understand the chief executive of AIB has written to former senior executives in recent days asking them to make a voluntary decision in regard to the pensions they receive. It is important to note that this Government has gone further than any previous Government by including all elements of the pay package under the salary cap. The current chief executive of AIB, for example, is subject to the cap of €500,000. The remuneration of the chief executive of Permanent TSB is also subject to the same cap.

It is also important to note that the story here has not been true or clear in terms of what has been portrayed. The transfer of €1.1 billion of nominal loan assets to the AIB pension fund was not to fund the extraordinary and, in my view, utterly exorbitant level of pensions to a number of former senior personnel within the pillar banks. It was to deal with the deficit that was going to arise due to the fact that 2,500 people were taking voluntary retirement from the bank. If that transfer had not taken place, the consequence would have been compulsory redundancies, which is a very different position. In the meantime, the small number of former senior executives would have continued to receive the extraordinary level of pension remuneration they currently receive. The transfer of €1.1 billion of nominal loan assets, which if they were sold at market value would probably have yielded approximately €300 million, meant that the voluntary retirement of 2,500 staff could proceed. Hopefully, following the decision of the chief executive to write to these people, they might decide to make voluntary decisions about the levels of the pension they receive.

In respect of what will happen in the future, the Government has gone further than any previous Government. The Minister is constrained in this regard legally in that pensions are regarded in a particular way under the Constitution. I will not comment on the issue of fairness which the Government will address, in so far as it can, in the presentation of the budget early in December.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with the Taoiseach that these are utterly exorbitant pensions. However, he has not told us what the Government will do about it. When Fianna Fáil was in power, it took a huge public outcry and much political pressure for it to introduce an 80% levy on bankers' bonuses in 2010. At that time, the Opposition of the day was outraged by the failure of the Government to act. In fact, the current Minister for Health called at that time for a 99% levy. We were sent to this House to legislate; that is our job. It is not enough for the Taoiseach to say that we can do nothing about this and that the Minister for Finance is constrained. Legislation can be introduced, and it is up to the Taoiseach and his Government to do that.

Second, the other issue with these huge payments is the fact that these banks are being funded by the taxpayers. That is deeply offensive. These are banks that will not give medium and small businesses credit or mortgage relief to citizens who are in mortgage distress. Food kitchens are opening in small towns and cities throughout the State, yet some of our Ministers earn more than their counterparts in Europe. The Taoiseach earns more than whoever will be elected the new US President today. This has nothing to do with the budget, but with an emergency that has arisen. Will the Taoiseach commit to introducing a levy to deal with these utterly exorbitant payments, as he described them?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is talking about two different things. A pension is a pension but a bonus is a bonus. What was raised in the House on many occasions was dealing with very high bonus payments. Pensions are treated differently and are in a different position legally. I have heard comments about the power of shareholders, under section 50 of the Pensions Act, to impose reductions on pensions. Individual shareholders do not have the power under the Pensions Act to impose reductions on existing pensioners.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Government is the biggest shareholder.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The individual shareholder cannot apply for a section 50 reduction. The section permits a pension board, following an application by trustees, to direct those trustees to reduce benefits, if they are subject to active and deferred scheme members or pensioners currently in receipt of a pension.

Fairness is clearly an issue and it must be reflected in the budget, in so far as the Government can do that. The review of all levels of pay in the pillar banks is being carried out by the Minister and the Department of Finance. Additional information in that regard has been provided by Mercer. The Government has adhered to the caps that were set in place.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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It has not. Richie Boucher is paid far more than that.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It has, and the appointment of the chief executive of AIB was in line with that. I hear all the wonderful words being said by some people, but they allowed this to happen under their watch. Things are different now. I consider a pension of €500,000 to be truly extraordinary. There is a moral responsibility on individuals to deal with that. As I said, the chief executive has written to former senior executives. I do not know the contractual arrangements that were arrived at with many of these pensions, but that is a matter for examination.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They did not fulfil the contracts.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have pointed out to Deputy Adams the reflections regarding the bank's capacity to meet its pensions.

That is why the €1.1 billion was transferred, to deal with the 2,500 people taking early retirement or voluntary redundancy. I do not expect the Government to follow that if there was a requirement for a second transfer of additional funds to deal with pension deficits that may arise in the case of senior executives who carry truly extraordinary levels of pension. It is a matter for the banks to deal with but I would not be supportive of a further similar transfer in the case of dealing with the pension deficit when they are already retired and in receipt of extraordinarily high levels of remuneration.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I join the Taoiseach and Deputy Kelleher in condemning the vile murder of Mr. David Black in Northern Ireland and I express my sympathy to his family. This does not represent a return to the dark ages, but it is a horrible reminder of things that happened here a decade or so ago. No one in this House has any truck with that sort of activity. The message should go out loud and clear from the Chamber. There is unanimous support for the family and condemnation of the terrorists who brought about this awful crime.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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My question about banking pensions is a follow-on from the Taoiseach's comments. When the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, said he could do nothing about it, legally and technically he was correct. It would be interesting if the issue faced a challenge in the courts. If we cannot do anything about the past, why can we not do something about the current situation? Three prominent bankers appeared before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform last week. One of them, Mr. Richie Boucher, receives €620,000 a year; another, Mr. Mike Aynsley of IBRC receives €866,000; and the pauper of the pack, Mr. David Duffy, receives €500,000 per year.

The Government can do something. All three of the banks have remuneration committees that approve these outrageous salaries to bankers. Representatives of the Government sit on the remuneration committees in the form of public interest directors. The chairman of the Bank of Ireland remuneration committee is Mr. Joe Walsh, a former Minister with responsibility for agriculture. This means Mr. Walsh has approved the sum of €620,000 for Mr. Boucher and his pension. It also means Mr. Walsh approved the payment of approximately €400,000 per year, or €8,000 per week, to Mr. Archie Kane as governor of the Bank of Ireland. By proxy, the Government has approved it.

I ask the Taoiseach whether the public interest directors have any interest in the public. The public and the Government cannot possibly approve of these payments. I hope this is a constructive suggestion. The Taoiseach should consider calling in the public interest directors representing the Taoiseach, me and the people to tell them the Government will no longer tolerate payments of this kind and that it requires the heads of banks not to be paid a red cent more than the €169,000 paid to the Minister for Finance, who has responsibility for all banks.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The appointments made by this Government are within the cap, as outlined by the Minister for Finance. The chief executive of AIB is under the cap of €500,000 and remuneration of the Irish Life & Permanent chief executive is also in line with the cap. It is not open to the Minister to change contractual arrangements arrived at by a previous Administration. Deputy Shane Ross is well aware of that.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Government said it would do so.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ross asked an interesting question about the role and responsibilities of the public interest directors. I have not met the public interest directors but recently in the Dáil I referred to my intention to look at the remit of the Cabinet sub-committee dealing with mortgage arrears and to expand it into banking in general.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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In what year?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Clearly a number of banking decisions must be made in the time ahead. It may be possible to see what the relationship between public interest directors and their role in respect of public interest can be in terms of communicating their views on what is happening at the boards of banks and to hear directly from the representatives of the people on the situation.

The appointments made by this Government are within the agreed cap. The chief executive of AIB has written to former senior executives with regard to the levels of the pensions they receive.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Let us ask the fox to bring back the hens it stole.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is a moral responsibility on those who allegedly receive extraordinarily high levels of pension to do something about it. I hope they do.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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There should be a no tolerance policy for these salaries. I am sure the Taoiseach is aware, as is the Minister for Finance, that Mr. Boucher is paid nearly four times the salary of the Minister for Finance and over three times the salary of the Taoiseach. That is not making a judgment on the Taoiseach's salary, but it tells us a lot about what these people receive. These are rewards for failure.

The basic problem is the relationship between the Government and the banks. If the Government is so detached from them, and we constantly hear that there is nothing that can be done and that the banks must have a commercial mandate and operate independently, what do the public interest directors do if they do not sit on the remuneration committee and rubber-stamp outrageous amounts of pay? Does the Taoiseach have no influence on them? Can he not call them in and say there can be no more tolerance of these payments and that they are to stop now? At least three of them are ex-politicians. Is it not the view of the Taoiseach and does he not convey it to them in order that they can convey it to the boards in question to stop these outrageous payments? There is a direct line of accountability and the Taoiseach can start it by giving specific instructions that the payments are not to continue.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's question is whether we are entitled to change contractual arrangements arrived at, agreed and signed off on. The Government has made two appointments, both of which were subject to the approval of the Minister for Finance, and they are in line with the cap. I am not sure how the conditions of contractual arrangements previously arrived at are vested. In terms of the legal position on the level of pension paid, the Minister for Finance has set out the legal constraints imposed upon him. This is an issue of enormous concern to the hard-pressed and challenged public in these economic circumstances. I hope the persons in receipt of extraordinary pensions reflect on the issue of moral responsibility in these challenging times.

The Government will present the 2013 budget in the first week of December. It will try to reflect the budget in as equitable, affordable and fair a manner as possible. The issue Deputy Ross raises, quite rightly, as a matter of public concern is one on which we will reflect. I will reflect on the role and responsibilities of public interest directors in the banks in the context of the expansion of the remit of the Cabinet sub-committee dealing with mortgage arrears and banking in general.