Dáil debates

Tuesday, 23 October 2012

Ceisteanna - Questions - Priority Questions

Local Government Reform

2:25 pm

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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To ask the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government if, with regard to the enhanced function of regional assemblies, the greater number of shared services and centralised procurement which he proposes as part of wider local government reforms, he has taken into account the academic evidence from similar reforms in other countries which shows that hoped-for efficiency savings did not materialise at the scale envisaged, and that there is evidence that beyond populations of 15,000 - 20,000 there is a limited potential for economies of scale in most areas of expenditure; if so, the measures he proposes to ensure that this does not happen here; if he undertook any examination of the role that enhanced municipal councils might play in helping deliver efficiencies in tandem with regional authorities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46407/12]

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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As in most areas of academic work, views on the optimal size of local authorities vary and international comparisons can be complicated by difficulty in comparing like with like. In the light of the range of functions of local authorities, their responsibilities for the delivery of services and the improvements in representational effectiveness and accountability, I am satisfied that the Government has struck an appropriate balance to optimise efficiency. Moreover, factors other than population and scale are relevant, including the strength of attachment to the county in Ireland.

The Government has affirmed the city and county as the core element of local government in Ireland, but various roles and functions will be performed at different levels of local government. As the report of the local government efficiency review group indicated, many services require a scale beyond the county to maximise efficiency, which is why a shared services approach is being prioritised in administrative areas such as treasury management, payroll, transactional human resources, back and front office information and communication technology services and accounts payable. A shared approach to procurement is also being taken. Lead authority models, where one local authority provides a service on behalf of others, are also being followed .

Within counties, the arrangements for sub-county governance set out in therecently announced action plan for local government entitled, Putting People First, are designed to maximise efficiency through countywide administrative integration. Representational effectiveness is being significantly enhanced by devolving a range of decisions to elected members at district level.

Local authorities will have the flexibility to organise service delivery so as to maximise the effectiveness of customer service. The number and size of districts will be determined on the basis of an independent local electoral area review. It is possible that many districts will be within or close to the population range referred to in the question.

Regarding the regional and national levels, an oversight role in shared services and procurement is envisaged for revised regional bodies. The proposed national oversight and audit commission and the regional assemblies’ contribution to efficiency will be through their oversight role rather than direct delivery of services.

2:35 pm

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I referred in my question to the work done by Mark Callanan, Ronan Murphy and Aodh Quinlivan, who are well known experts in the area of local government. The international evidence they have gathered suggests there is limited potential for economies of scale beyond populations of 15,000 to 20,000. These are not people I would dismiss out of hand. I accept that it might be advantageous to manage expenditure in areas such as information technology and human resources. It is disappointing that the regional authorities will be selected from the counties rather than directly elected. If they are not elected they will be irrelevant. This is a missed opportunity.

I agree that we have to operate as efficiently and cheaply as possible but a major reform of this nature must take the long view. Saving money cannot be the sole focus. That has been the predominant theme thus far, however. One of the areas in which it is claimed that money will be saved is through the abolition of town councils. I have previously argued that some of the smaller local authorities should have been abolished years ago but larger town councils have played a positive role in local government. Their role appears to be misunderstood. Having served on a town council for many years, I think that is a pity. I question whether the savings claimed in the document will in fact be delivered. I have previously argued that the number of regional authorities should be reduced to three but I would like have functions beyond an oversight role because there is much to be achieved.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The functions are being devolved to municipal district level in order that they will be as close as possible to the citizens. The regional assemblies will exist for the purpose of monitoring expenditure under EU operational programmes, overseeing regional planning guidelines and driving the efficiencies we require in local government and best practice in the regions. The local government audit service may have come up with useful suggestions about how to improve the effective delivery and quality of services but many of them are historical in nature. We are not getting real time information on how we might implement these proposals. I hope the regional assemblies will help us drive that through the oversight commission.

We can speak about structures but if regional authorities are directly elected they will be at the expense of something else in terms of power and functional responsibility. I subscribe to the view that power and responsibility should be as close as possible to the people. That will be done through the municipal districts and county and city authorities. This is why I did not opt for directly elected regional authorities. There is a need for co-ordination, and provision for this will be included in regional authorities' remit. I do not regard these proposals as abolishing anything. They will upgrade the powers and responsibilities of the local authority structures which are as close as possible to the people. I assure Deputy Catherine Murphy that when the legislation is introduced in 2013 it will contain a vast array of new responsibilities for councillors at local level.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I agree that decisions should be taken as close to the people as possible.

There are also opportunities at regional level to devolve functions from national level downwards, for example, in transportation and the building of schools. Many functions could be devolved from the various Ministries to regional level, an approach which would bring them closer to the people. What we would be looking at in this regard would be economic regions. In areas in Europe where such regions were developed, significant advantage has accrued.

With regard to town councillors who were formerly town commissioners, most of the funding for them came from an extra town charge. In the area with which I am most familiar, Leixlip, most of the funding would have come from a major multinational. These moneys were very well used in Leixlip, but they would not necessarily go to the county council. Nothing will be saved by the abolition of that town council and I am sure this will be replicated around the country.

2:40 pm

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will agree that we have a centralised system and that what I am trying to do is to move some functions from central government and national agencies to local authority level and as close as possible to the people. She will see examples of this in the document. I look forward to working with Deputies on all sides of the House in deciding from the legislation as published on the appropriate functions in order that we can drive through this agenda of reform. We want to have people at local level to participate in and have the power to make these decisions. Funding will always be the most difficult part of this. Where people will raise and spend money at local level, depending on their priorities, it will be difficult. We cannot and do not expect to have meaningful reform of local government until such time as we are able to give people not just the powers but also the responsibility to pay for services as far as possible at local level.