Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that in health and infrastructure terms, the top priority for the Oireachtas must be meeting the needs of sick children and the provision of world class facilities for them. It is six months since An Bord Pleanála refused planning permission for the proposed national children's hospital. At the time an independent assessment, subsequently known as the Dolphin report, was requested by the Minister who informed us it would take one month to complete. When the Minister received the report on 8 June, he stated a decision would be taken within weeks. This was followed by a statement in July that the decision would be taken in October. Today, in a remarkable story, we learned about a further report for the Tánaiste, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, who is conducting his own independent research into the preferred location of the new national children's hospital. Labour Party officials are openly stating they are meeting the various bidders and essentially producing their own report and assessment on the issue. I put it to the Taoiseach that the behaviour of the Labour Party, in particular the Tánaiste, serves to isolate even further and undermine the role and position of the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, in the Cabinet. The Tánaiste and his advisers and officials appear to be indicating that they do not trust the Minister to take the correct decision. Was the Taoiseach aware that the Tánaiste was pursuing this independent track in respect of the national children's hospital? Has the Government or any Minister commissioned an independent person to make a separate assessment of the sites contained and covered in the Dolphin report?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thought the Deputy would raise another question today. I did not see him racing out of the traps as he did at the weekend.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Taoiseach get to attend the county final?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not deal in anonymous reports. I have said clearly there is but one process in regard to the national children's hospital. The Government has set out, as part of its programme, that one of the major priorities is to build a national children's hospital for all the children of Ireland in the best way possible with credibility. The Dolphin report, which was commissioned by the Minister for Health, is in the hands of the Minister, who has been considering it for some time. Inevitably, questions arise from elements of that. The process is that the Minister will brief the Tánaiste and me on his findings, and thereafter he will bring his recommendation to the Government. The Government, when making its decision, will be absolutely cognisant of doing the best thing for the children of the country. That is the process, and anything the Deputy hears outside that is speculation.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I asked the Taoiseach two questions which he did not answer. First, was he aware that the Tánaiste was pursuing an independent track and that his officials and advisers had been meeting with the various bidders and getting their opinions? Was the Taoiseach aware that the Tánaiste was pursuing that independent approach on the location of the national children's hospital? Second - this could be a yes-or-no answer - has the Government asked any other individual person separate from the Dolphin process to assess the sites concerned, or has any Minister in the Cabinet asked an independent person to assess the sites? A simple "Yes" or "No" would be appreciated.

The bottom line is that we have had a great deal of speculation, all of it emanating from the Government side. It is no longer good enough for the Taoiseach to stand up here and say that he does not deal in anonymous sources, because the source is not anonymous. This morning's report is not anonymous. It is as clear as blue water where it is coming from; it came from the Labour Party side this morning, and they are in quotation marks. It is an open secret that the Minister approached Beaumont Hospital to make a submission on the Belcamp site. Other Ministers have been openly promoting the Blanchardstown site. We all agree in the House that the issue is of paramount importance. What is important - I want the Taoiseach to assure the House on this - is that party political considerations will not dictate the outcome here-----

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Unlike the last time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----but, rather, that the best interests of the nation's children will be paramount in any decision.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Does the Deputy remember Bertie?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister, Deputy Reilly, approved of that-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin is disappointed that the shallow opportunism-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Minister remember Seán Garland?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Rabbitte remember the Workers' Party?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----he displayed over the weekend was not justified. This is a Government project and therefore a Government decision. The Government commissioned Mr. Dolphin to do his report, and Mr. Dolphin has provided his report to the Minister. The Minister has examined that report-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Has anybody else been commissioned?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and is in a position now to give his findings to me and to the Tánaiste. He will then make his recommendation to the Government and the Government will make its decision. I can confirm for Deputy Martin that, as this is a Government project, the Government has not commissioned another independent report in this matter. The Deputy can take it also that the Government, in its decision, will make the best attempt it can at doing the right thing in respect of the children of the country who will have use of this hospital. As he is aware, the Government put in place a process to fund this. I recall the politics that surrounded the statement by a predecessor of mine who said the children's hospital would be in a particular place. There was far too much politics involved in all of this.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was no evidence to sustain that. The Taoiseach should not tell untruths. The Minister endorsed that subsequently. It is not good enough.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The process here is very clear. This is a Government project.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Who is doing all the shouting? Will you quiet down, please? Thank you.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a Government decision. It is part of the programme for Government and when the Minister makes his recommendation, the Government will make a decision in the best interests of all the children of the country. I expect that to happen-----

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Will it be all the Labour Party children?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----in the next two to three weeks. Many questions have been asked about individual issues. That is the process. It is a Government decision, a Government process. The Minister will make his recommendations and the Government will make its decision.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Will it be the children of the backbenchers in the Labour Party?

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirfidh me an cheist ar a bhfuil an Taoiseach ag fanacht. Tá a fhios agam go raibh an Taoiseach an-ghnóthach ag an deireadh seachtaine ag eitilt ó áit go háit agus ag bualadh le daoine.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Ag caint agus ag eitilt.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Tuigim sin, agus bhí an Taoiseach ag éisteacht fosta. Is it fair to say that Sinn Féin and the Government are of one mind in that the legacy debt must be got rid of if there is to be any chance of regenerating the economy that was wrecked by our friends in Fianna Fáil? I wonder if it is possible-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are a few legacies around the Deputy's-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will deal with it. Continue.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. Despite the Taoiseach's telephone conversation with the German Chancellor and his meeting with the French President, he failed to clarify how that unsustainable debt is to be paid. I put it to the Taoiseach that the first thing that must be acknowledged is that this debt is unpayable. The Taoiseach has never done that. He has never said "This is not payable. We cannot afford it." Sinn Féin wants him to succeed. The need to regenerate the economy is bigger than any party political concerns. When we argued from the outset that there was a need to separate sovereign debt from private banking debt and for a write-down of that banking debt, the Taoiseach said "No". He said we would not be known as defaulters. He said we would not have this stamped on our foreheads, and he reassured our friends in the European Union on those points. In June, the Government claimed that a deal had been done. The Taoiseach said it was a seismic shift, while the Tánaiste said it was a game changer. The Tánaiste went further and claimed that a deal on legacy debt would be concluded by October, as did the Minister for Finance-----

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No. The Commission said-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----but a legacy debt was not even mentioned in the June statement. The truth is that no deal was done and no agreement was reached. I understand that negotiations are ongoing and that the game is still on but would it be sensible for the Taoiseach to make it clear that this debt is not payable? Would it be sensible to make it clear also that a deal was not done on legacy debt in June?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This situation was created by a previous Administration which felt it was the cheapest bailout in the world.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Taoiseach vote for it?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The decision of 29 June was a seismic shift because it was a major move from a European policy point of view. It was not existent before that. It was not expected to happen but because of the cogency of the arguments made around the table, agreement was reached to make that major move and break the link between sovereign and bank debt. That was a seismic shift in European policy. The decision of 29 June also meant that the introduction of the banking union and the supervisory process could lead to recapitalisation of banks from the ESM. The meetings of Thursday and Friday - the Deputy will have a chance to address this tomorrow as well - reaffirmed in full the decision of 29 June and set out a date for the legal framework to be in place. We cannot do anything about this without a legal framework, and the date for that is 1 January 2013. In addition, all 27 members of the Council reaffirmed their mandate to the euro group and the Ministers for finance to work out the definitions, the modalities and the conditions that will apply in the process, which will be quite difficult to negotiate. They appreciate that the banking union and the supervisory authority will have to deal with more than 6,000 banks and that the relationship between the Eurogroup, the Ministers for finance and the European Central Bank, which will be the central supervising authority, covers a broad and extensive range of areas to be dealt with.

It is important that when this mechanism is put in place that it be effective, that it be seen to be effective and it is based on quality and standards that will stand up. That cannot happen overnight. The June meeting was reaffirmed on Thursday and Friday. As Deputy Adams correctly pointed out, between ag caint and ag eitilt, the clarification and recognition of Ireland’s unique circumstances and special case will be dealt with as such in the context of the negotiating mandate given to the Minister for Finance.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I can see, after that answer, why they think the Taoiseach is special.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams is very special himself.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I understand the negotiations are ongoing.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Is Deputy Adams disappointed they have not failed?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Adams was special 20 years ago.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has a significant amount of honest leverage in that this debt is not payable. The cost for the people is crippling. The Taoiseach knows the story so I will not recite it to him but he knows the number of people who are broken from paying the bankers’ private debt. That is the price.

Some times in negotiations, one has to be unreasonable-----

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams would know all about that.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----and have a clear objective in mind.

Will the Taoiseach just acknowledge, contrary to the Government’s claims, that no deal on legacy debt was done in June, as it is clear to everyone else? Will he also make it clear that the debt is not payable? I do not know if the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, was speaking for the Government but last week he said the debt was not sustainable which is the same as saying we cannot pay it. I wish the Taoiseach well in his work. I know the difficulties he faces and how he inherited them from Fianna Fáil and the Greens. However, I would like him to be clear that no legacy deal was done in June and that the people of this State cannot afford to pay this debt.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you Deputy Adams.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should tell that to our partners in Europe today.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I forgot to say to Deputy Adams that it was the European Commissioner, Olli Rehn, who said it was his hope that there would be a conclusion to the process by the end of October. Deputy Adams will recall in answers to himself and other Members that I said this was unlikely to be achieved, given the scale and the nature of the negotiations that would have to take place. We have always said the process of negotiation from Ireland’s perspective is to attempt to get the best possible deal for our taxpayers and people. That is the position that stands.

The reason this process has to be gone through is that the situation is unfair on the Irish taxpayer and people. As I pointed out the other day, Ireland’s banks have been recapitalised. Ireland was first out of the blocks to have that position imposed upon us. Because of the panic and desperation of the previous Administration, the blanket guarantee was applied in the way it was.

Deputy Adams will have read the conclusions of the summit decision on 29 June. They are very clear. He will have read the decisions of last Thursday and Friday, which are equally clear. They put flesh on the principle adopted in June of setting out the legal framework for the conditions, modalities, the mechanics and the organisation of how this will apply. With over 6,000 banks involved, it is a process that cannot be taken lightly for very good reason.

From Ireland’s perspective, I welcome the joint statement from the German Chancellor-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Did she speak to the Taoiseach this time?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and yesterday’s statement from the French President recognising the unique circumstances of Ireland’s position and that the special case which arises in Ireland will be taken into account in the negotiations that are mandated to be carried out by the euro group. That process is under way and will intensify in the lead up to and after the legal framework has been put in place.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It would be wrong and churlish of anybody on this side of the House not to recognise the extraordinary energy which the Taoiseach and members of the Government have put into getting some relief on the bank debt from Europe in recent days.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Will Deputy Ross tell that to his buddies in the Sunday Independent?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Wait for the rest of it.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The danger is that Ireland will become a victim in German internal politics, however. We have seen several examples of that in the changes made to policies and statements in recent days. The Taoiseach alone is in a unique position as he was on the telephone call to Angela Merkel on Sunday. He can tell us whether he asked her if there was any question of writing off legacy debt and, if so, what was her answer to that particular question. This is the nub of the problem. It is a very serious life and death matter for the nation. To answer Deputy Adams’s earlier question, it was the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, who yesterday in addressing the issue of bank relief said if we do not get some relief in time we will not be sustainable as an independent state. That is pretty straightforward. It means if we do not get a write-off of the debt, we will perish economically.

With genuine concern I want to make the following constructive suggestion. The Taoiseach and his other Ministers should go ahead with their diplomatic efforts to get relief on the debt, which has so far proved particularly unfruitful. However, parallel to this, the Taoiseach should make another telephone call to Angela Merkel to tell her that behind this velvet glove, there is an iron fist. As Ireland’s debt is unsustainable, as admitted by one of the Taoiseach’s Ministers, the Taoiseach has only two options. The first is forgiveness by the lenders; the second, unilateral decisions by the borrowers. The Taoiseach must insist on parking and postponing the payment of the €3 billion on the Anglo Irish promissory notes due in March if no deal is agreed before then.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That way the Taoiseach would bring a pressure point but would also pursue the diplomatic initiative.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When I travelled to Brussels for the 29 June summit, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, took the Order of Business. Deputy Ross commented on that occasion that I would be better off going to Blackrock than to Brussels. Deputy Ross has shifted ground more than once.

We are looking for a deal in respect of bank debt because of the unfairness that applies to our people. That was applied following panic and desperation and the imposition of the blanket guarantee by a previous Administration. People might not like to hear that but it is important that it is not forgotten.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach voted for it though.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach was mad to vote for it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The focus of the intensity of the discussions by every Minister at European level speaks for itself. I have not heard Deputy Martin, for instance, say that the joint communique with the German Chancellor or the statement by the French President, are meaningless and harmful to our country like he said over the weekend in a classic observation of shallow opportunism.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did issue a statement and I will also issue a very substantive statement tomorrow. We have 85 minutes of debate on it here tomorrow too.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I cannot wait.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputies, please stop interrupting. Thank you.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Taoiseach be switching over to digital in the morning?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The situation is that Ireland is one member of the 27 and one member of the 17.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Taoiseach be going digital in the morning?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Dooley went analogue a long time ago.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will play our part the same as every other member around that table.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Maybe, Deputy Dooley, you could go down to the Olympia and try out your jokes there. Will you listen to this, please? Thank you.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As Deputy Ross is aware, much of what has been developed in this country in terms of infrastructure over the years has been contributed to by contributor countries of the European Union funding mechanisms, including Structural Funds. The negotiations in respect of the promissory notes situation are being conducted with the European Central Bank, the Minister for Finance and the troika and they continue. We are now in a position in respect of the break between the sovereign and bank debt where the date has been set for the legal framework, the mandate has been given to the euro group and there is a recognition now at the highest level that the unique circumstances that apply in Ireland's case and the special nature of our case will be taken into account in those negotiations by the euro group.

Deputy Ross is well aware that if we took the route that he is proposing, or that of Deputy Adams, the people working in PayPal in Dundalk would not be employed there and many other indigenous global firms and others would not have been in a position to make the decisions of confidence in the country which they have displayed by putting their money where their mouth is in terms of the future and the employment of Irish people. There are many others throughout the country who could take a lesson from such confidence and not have us faced with an avalanche of unpatriotic comment, meaningless in most cases, which I witnessed over the weekend.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I notice the Taoiseach did not comment on the fact that his Minister has admitted that the debt is not sustainable in public. This is why it is so serious. Since the Taoiseach has not answered any of my other questions I call on him to answer this question: what did the Taoiseach say to Angela Merkel in that telephone call?

A Deputy:

"Put your sweet lips a little closer to the phone."

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Did the Taoiseach ask her the one question on the lips of the nation, that is, whether legacy debt could be written off and whether the banks could be recapitalised? I am referring to the Irish banks that got into trouble before the night of the guarantee. If the Taoiseach did not ask her that question, he was simply agreeing with her to produce a temporary solution to get him over the next crisis. If the Taoiseach had the opportunity of chewing the ear off the German Chancellor, he should have taken it.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That opportunity-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Do not get excited.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I hope that opportunity was not missed. I hope the Taoiseach will tell us what questions he asked her about and what answers she gave him because the Taoiseach is the only person who can tell us whether is Ireland is a special case. Moreover, the question is this: is Ireland an exception? That is what the Taoiseach is looking for.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Surely Deputy Ross does not expect me to say what the questions I had for the Chancellor were or those that she had for me?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I do. That is exactly what I expect.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ross would love to know and that is why he is up there, as Deputy Rabbitte said.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Has Deputy Ross heard of international discussions?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ross should note the position. After the conversation a joint communiqué was issued on behalf of the Chancellor and myself. It speaks for itself and it is very clear.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think so.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is as clear as mud.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The conversation was amicable, comprehensive and resulted in a clear position in so far as this country is concerned in the view of Germany.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It was all one-sided.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We knew we were special.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ross's comment that this country could become a victim of the internal politics of any other country is invalid.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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A special child.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He is special, like Barney.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ross may continue to wonder about the conversation but he can have the communiqué and I will sign it for him if he wishes.