Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful to the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this topic. It is important as we move towards the last day of this session that we have an opportunity to have a brief discussion with the Minister. I appreciate his presence to deal with the issue directly because his recent announcement on the further reorganisation of the Defence Forces is of considerable importance.

I acknowledge that we are all living through a period of public service reform. There was talk about reform of the public service for decades, but it is only in the past four or five years that have we seen meaningful reform. Unfortunately, that meaningful reform has been forced on us by economic necessity.

If we consider the Defence Forces and their history, we will see that even during the Celtic tiger period when money was not an issue and Governments were investing substantial amounts of money, in terms of both the pay and conditions of members of the Defence Forces and in providing the modern equipment a modern army embarking on peacekeeping and peace enforcement missions needed, there was a process of reform in the Defence Forces. Barracks numbers were reduced from 34 to 14 and, in fairness, the representative bodies, RACO and PDFORRA, engaged in a constructive and meaningful way with the Government on the reforms they were being asked to undertake. In addition to barracks number reductions, we saw personnel numbers decline from 11,500 to 9,500. I commend the Minister for his commitment in his announcement yesterday to maintain the figure at 9,500. However, what is worrying for people who have an interest in this topic is that the announcement has been made in advance of the Minister's commitment to publish a Green Paper and the value for money review of the Reserve Defence Force. One wonders how the Minister can stand over the taking of that initiative, while at the same time being committed to following a Green Paper process and a value for money review.

It would be remiss of me, not least given that I come from County Kildare where the Defence Forces are at the heart of the community and the economy of the county, not to say there is deep disappointment on the part of the representative bodies, RACO and PDFORRA, that there was no active engagement with them, although the Minister can contradict me on this, before the announcement was made. It is not to say they are a particularly truculent or difficult pair of representative bodies to deal with; they are anything but, rather they are reasonable and would state to the Minister, as they indicated to my party when it was in government, that they were to the fore in the public service in accepting meaningful change and adopting a reform agenda. They are disappointed that this significant announcement has been made without adequate, if any, consultation with them. I would like to hear what the Minister has to say about this.

There seems to be a sense among the membership of the Defence Forces that the move from three brigades to two is not necessary and that reform could be achieved within the overall figure of 9,500 members. There will be disappointment in a number of areas, not least in Athlone where it appears that there will be a further reduction in the number serving, with an impact on the local economy. The Minister might indicate whether a cost benefit analysis has been undertaken. Can he assure us there will be no further barrack closures and on the implications for the career path of the officer corps within the Defence Forces in the structures he is trying to put in place?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I start by wishing the Deputy well in his new position.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I look forward to constructive engagement with the Deputy in the House which I hope will not always be conflictual.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss the reorganisation of the Permanent Defence Force. As the Deputy knows, in December 2011 I announced a revised ceiling of 9,500 personnel for the Permanent Defence Force and a reorganisation of the Defence Forces, encompassing a move from a three brigade structure to a two brigade structure. The Cabinet agreed to stabilise the Permanent Defence Force at 9,500 and recognised that a three brigade structure was no longer viable. This reorganisation is driven by the immediate realities of retaining operational effectiveness within a strength ceiling of 9,500 at a time when financial resources are limited.

I tasked the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General of my Department to bring forward proposals for the reorganisation for my consideration. I have accepted their recommendations and yesterday was pleased to announce the details of the reorganisation. I am satisfied that the reorganisation will ensure the Permanent Defence Force will retain the capacity to fulfil the roles assigned to the greatest possible extent within the strength ceiling of 9,500 and the significantly reduced resource envelope resulting from the fiscal difficulties of the State. This was confirmed in the report I had received from the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General.

I am continually surprised by the misinformation promulgated in recent weeks, up to this morning's publications in the newspapers, on the reorganisation. There are a number of issues which it is important to clarify. The reorganisation will not result in job losses. It will ensure the units within the Permanent Defence Force are configured appropriately and reflect attainable strength levels. As part of this process, the reorganisation entails the amalgamation of under-strength units into full strength units. Clearly, this does not equate to job losses. It ensures actual jobs are reflected in organisational structures. Continued reference to notional jobs associated with outdated and revoked strength levels is misleading and disingenuous. The reports in newspapers today that 500 jobs will be lost as a consequence of this reorganisation are entirely untrue.

Contrary to recent assertions, my decision to initiate a reorganisation was made following a detailed assessment of the defence and security environment and consideration of associated Defence Forces capability requirements. This was conducted both as part of the comprehensive review of expenditure and during the preparation of the Department of Defence and Defence Forces' strategy statement. Both documents have been published and are available for viewing.

As the Deputy mentioned, a Green Paper on Defence is being prepared. When published at the end of the year, it will inform a broad discussion about Ireland's defence policy. This will culminate in the publication of a new White Paper on Defence at the end of 2013. This White Paper will set out defence policy and encompass a longer timeframe than that of the strategy statement. It will inform long-term capability requirements for implementation over an extended timeframe, typically ten or more years. The reorganisation is driven by the immediate realities of maintaining required operational capabilities within a significantly reduced resource envelope as a consequence of the fiscal difficulties confronting the State.

As the Deputy asked me to say so, I repeat that there will be no further barrack closures as part of this reorganisation, nor will there be further barrack closures within the lifetime of the Government. It seems I have to say this repeatedly every six weeks or so inside and outside the House.

Having clarified these issues, it is important to highlight the positive impact the reorganisation will make in ensuring the continued delivery of Defence Forces operational capabilities and outputs, both at home and overseas. The reorganisation will ensure the Defence Forces remain fit for purpose and continue to deliver value for money. It is an excellent example of the public sector reform agenda in action, to which the Deputy referred. It proactively addresses the challenge of ensuring the continued delivery of operational capabilities and outputs within the current resource constraints.

The Defence Forces have a proud track record in implementing significant changes of this nature, while minimising the impact on personnel to the greatest possible extent. I am aware that, ultimately, it will be the men and women of the Defence Forces who will deliver this reform. The representative associations were informed yesterday about the reorganisation taking place. I look forward to their engagement on the undertaking of the reorganisation process.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his words of welcome. I look forward to working with him in this brief and wish him continued success in his role. Am I to take it from his reply that the 2012 budget for the Department of Defence is running behind target? Is that why we are faced with making savings? Will savings accrue from the initiative? Will the Minister clarify whether he engaged in a cost-benefit analysis process? Am I correct in understanding no discussions took place with the representative bodies before the announcement was made? Why was that the case? When one is dealing with representative bodies which are constructive in their approach and can demonstrate goodwill towards the Government, it is a mistake, at the very least, not to engage with them. I urge the Minister to retrospectively rectify the matter.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is a matter for the Government and me as Minister for Defence in consultation with the Chief of Staff to make decisions on the reorganisation of the Defence Forces. It is not a matter for negotiation with the representative bodies. The correct legal approach was taken to provide for the reorganisation. When the arrangements proposed for it were agreed between the Secretary General of my Department and the Chief of Staff and the Cabinet was so informed, we immediately arranged for the representative bodies to be informed of the nature of the reorganisation. I fully accept that they have played a constructive role during the years and that there is the human element in undertaking the reorganisation and the impact it will have on individual members of the Defence Forces located in various parts of the country. That is a matter that will be discussed constructively and on which there will be engagement with the representative bodies.

On the issues raised by the Deputy, I do not envisage that we will be over budget at the end of the year. This is not about making additional savings; rather it is about living within our budget targets and using our resources in a wise way to ensure operational effectiveness within the Defence Forces.

Unfortunately, many misleading comments have been made. I have no wish to have a disagreeable exchange with the Deputy because they have not been made by him but by members of his party. He did make reference to the economic impact of the reorganisation, for example, in Athlone. He has in his party a Deputy who is running around telling people that there will be a reduction of 400 troops in Custume Barracks. He has led the charge on that issue in public meetings and was even a cheerleader for a protest held outside Leinster House one week ago. There are 1,050 members of the Defence Forces in Custume Barracks and I said all along that there would be approximately 1,000 members in Custume Barracks at the end of the reorganisation. The actual troop number in Custume Barracks as members of the Permanent Defence Force is 971. There are 35 civilians in Custume Barracks. In addition, there are exercising and training activities which impact on the numbers there which frequently will result in the number of members of the Army exceeding 971. No one could suggest in practical terms that a reduction of approximately 70 troops permanently located in Custume Barracks will have a dramatic impact in Athlone and that barracks playing a very important role within the Defence Forces as part of the reorganisation. In fact, Custume Barracks has the second largest number of troops, which is only exceeded by the number at Cathal Brugha Barracks in Dublin.

This reorganisation is in the interests of the country generally and the Defence Forces in order to maximise its capability. It will ensure we will have full units, with their appropriate specialties. In determining where specialties should be located I am very much informed by the advice of the Chief of Staff and those with the internal expertise to make these judgments. I thank the Deputy for raising what is an important issue and look forward to working with him in the coming months.