Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 17 and 19 together.

The Government is committed to tackling Ireland's economic crisis in a way that is fair, balanced and recognises the need for social solidarity. The appropriate level of overall expenditure by the Department of Social Protection will be considered in the context of budget 2013 and subsequent budgets. This consideration will be informed by the commitment in the programme for Government to maintain social welfare rates.

Sustainable public finances are a prerequisite for future economic stability and growth, as well as being a prerequisite for maintaining and developing the social protection system. The Government's priority is to secure economic recovery, promote growth and employment, and enhance our international reputation. As Deputies will know, we are required to return to the 3% general Government deficit over a period of time, as set out in the Stability and Growth Pact. The State must pursue a determined deficit reduction strategy. Accordingly, there will be an ongoing requirement to curtail expenditure in 2013 and later years.

There are a lot of challenges ahead and we want to protect, as far as possible, the key income supports and services operated by my Department. These services and supports impact in some way on the lives of almost every single person in the State. They are important to older people, children and those who have lost their employment following what was done to the banks by the previous Government. The scope and scale of this expenditure play a key role in the wider economy. Social welfare income support is widely recognised as being one of the most important forms of stimulus in European economies.

There is no question of introducing changes by stealth. If the Government decides to change eligibility rules or make other changes to achieve savings, any such measure will be announced in the budget and debated in this House.

As regards the preparations for budget 2013, I will be holding a pre-budget forum in the autumn to which I will invite a wide range of organisations, including the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. I will listen carefully to their submissions on the next budget. In addition, I will take into account the views of the Money Advice and Budgeting Service which operates under the aegis of the Citizen's Information Board, an agency of my Department. As part of the deliberative process for the next budget, the Department will analyse, in so far as possible, the distributive and poverty impact of possible welfare changes. These impacts will be taken into account in arriving at final decisions on the budget.

The Government's priority is to get the economy moving, restore confidence, fix the banking system and support the protection and creation of jobs. The success of our economic plans will lay the foundations for the rest of our agenda for change.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The report released by Social Justice Ireland confirms what many Deputies are aware of, particularly those who represent constituencies with high unemployment levels. The gap between Ireland's rich and poor is spiralling out of control. The disposable income of Ireland's poorest households fell by 18% in a single year. By comparison, the income of the richest in Ireland rose by 4%.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy, please, frame a question?

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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It is estimated that 10% of the population receive almost 14 times more in disposable income than the poorest who are experiencing the worst income distribution for over 30 years. Some 200,000 children live in poverty. My question is straightforward. Based on the comments of organisation such as Social Justice Ireland and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, a huge number of the people suffering from poverty are unemployed and in receipt of social welfare. It is inconceivable to consider reducing social welfare rate based on much of what the Minister said when she was in opposition and what fine organisations such as Social Justice Ireland and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul have stated. As we are in the final week of the Dáil session and before the Cabinet decides on the budget, I ask the Minister to relieve people's misery, because of the speculation and comment in some of the right-wing press that social welfare rates should be cut, by telling the 450,000 who rely on an income on which they can barely survive that their payments will not be touched or cut in the next budget.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I cannot make any commitment about what will or will not be included in the budget. That is a matter to be decided by the Government. The announcement of the budget will be made in this House. I acknowledge and share the Deputies' concerns that during this very difficult period for the economy we should protect those who are most vulnerable, particularly the elderly and people who have retired. However, for people of working age, the best way to get back to financial independence is for the Government to assist them to get a job. Most of those who, unfortunately, are languishing on the live register would love to have an opportunity to return to work. That must be the focus of policy. For that reason, I am reforming the system in the Department of Social Protection to provide for a process that will not be passive, whereby we leave people alone when they receive social welfare payments, rather we should give them options. It is difficult to get a job, but many could return to school, training or education and take opportunities provided by internships. We must expand the range of options available, as well as providing, when we roll out the new Pathways to Work programme, a more dedicated one-on-one service for persons who are unemployed.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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When I heard the Minister's reply to Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh's Question No. 16, I thought she was not living in the real world. Her most reply indicates that she is definitely not living in the real world. The income of Ireland's poorest households fell by 18%, while the rich got richer. Is the Minister going to stand over this as a Labour Party Minister? She asked people last year to elect her to protect them from this horrible gap between rich and poor. Some 700,000 are living in poverty, of whom 200,000 are children. The Minister has cut back on the lone parent allowance and the household package for the elderly. She is leaving people more vulnerable. I want to see a more aggressive approach being adopted by the Department to auditing how changes will have an impact on people. There are international models for such an approach, including in Australia and Canada. The Scottish Parliament, to give another example, conducts gender-based and poverty-based audits. Will the Minister give a commitment to undertake such audits in respect of all proposed measures in advance of the budget?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The important study published yesterday by Social Justice Ireland includes figures relating to the Fianna Fáil budgets in the 2009 to 2010 period.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The figures are worse now.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Joan Collins referred to the platform on which the Labour Party contested the last election. That platform included a commitment to protect basic social welfare rates, which I am pleased to say was done in the budget for this year. In addition, we ensured some 330,000 people on very low pay were taken out of the universal social charge net, which had an important impact for those affected. One of my first actions as Minister was to reinstate the minimum wage. We are in a period of unprecedented crisis in terms of the national finances, as a consequence of the collapse of the banking system. Our objective in the budget was to oversee with fairness and compassion and in a targeted way the distribution of the €20 billion plus we are spending on social protection. Deputy Collins might think that sum is not enough. The overriding objective in all of this is to get people back to work. That is why I reinstated the original level of the minimum wage, which the Deputy supported.

In regard to pensioners, our system of payments and supports for older people means that pensioners in this country are among the least at risk of poverty in the European Union. In fairness to it, Social Justice Ireland has fully acknowledge that in its reports.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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I remind the Minister that the Irish Association of Suicidology has indicated, based on international research, that for every one percentage point increase in unemployment, there is a 0.78% increase in the rate of suicide. Let us be clear that as the economic situation worsens, human lives are at stake. I urge the Minister to bear in mind the arguments put forward by those organisations working at the coalface to combat poverty in this country, as she was wont to do when in opposition. She has indicated that she will meet representatives of Social Justice Ireland, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and the money advice and budgeting service, among others. Deputies, including those in the Minister's party, in constituencies with high unemployment, such as Waterford city in my constituency, are aware of how difficult things are for people. There is no point in asking the Minister to increase social welfare rates, as should be done, because I know she will not do it. I ask, however, that she at least not reduce them.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister is correct that the period referenced in the Social Justice Ireland report is 2009 to 2010. She chose, however, to ignore that organisation's observation that current Government policy is making the situation worse. The Minister cannot hide behind Fianna Fáil forever. That party ruined this country, but it is the Minister's job now to protect those who require protection. She has it in her gift to restore people's confidence in the Government. People need protection, not compassion. Will she put in place audits in regard to gender, poverty, impact on children and so on in advance of the cutbacks of more than €3.9 billion that will be introduced in the next budget? It is worth bearing in mind that in 1945, under Churchill, the British establishment created the National Health Service at a time when that country's debt to GDP ratio was 240%.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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To be picky about history, it was Aneurin Bevan and the British Labour Party which created the National Health Service.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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My point is that it was established in the post-war period when Britain had huge debts.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am sure Deputy John Halligan from Waterford is aware of the work of Mr. Bevan from across the water in Wales. Credit should be given where it is due, to the British Labour Party and to Mr. Bevan.

To respond to Deputy Halligan's comments, unemployment is the most important issue we face. Since becoming Minister, I have reinstated the minimum wage because it is vital that people avail of employment opportunities that become available. Last year, 140,000 people left the live register to take up work. Unemployment is also the reason I am reforming my Department and adopting a new approach that is much more active and provides for training needs.

Years ago, I used to work in Waterford for months at a time. I know how devastating the unemployment crisis has been in that city, with the loss of TalkTalk, the Waterford Crystal factory and other firms. We must focus our efforts on employment. For this reason, I established the national internship scheme, which has so far attracted 8,500 participants, of whom 5,000 are currently taking part in the scheme. A further 4,500 people are taking part in the Tús scheme. These schemes are alternatives for people in a tight and difficult jobs market. I am working with my colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, to address our inability to fill certain high-level jobs. We need to redouble our efforts in the area of training to ensure local people on the live register have opportunities to fill vacancies in sectors such as high-level information technology, medical devices and pharmaceuticals.