Dáil debates

Tuesday, 17 July 2012

Priority Questions

Rent Supplement Scheme

2:00 pm

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Question 16: To ask the Minister for Social Protection the number of additional persons to whom the new lower rent supplement ceiling was applied in the past month; the number who have been forced to move as a consequence of the new ceiling to date in 2012; her views on whether it may be too late for parents who are forced to leave their locality to enrol their children in new schools; and if she will seek to make savings on rent supplement by negotiating directly with landlord representatives instead of placing exclusive responsibility for achieving her Departments savings on individual vulnerable tenants. [35043/12]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Government has provided €436 million for rent supplement in 2012. Total expenditure on the scheme over the past five years from 2007 to 2011 was €2.36 billion. At present, approximately 92,000 persons are in receipt of rent supplement, of whom approximately 37,000 are single persons. The remaining 55,000 clients are couples, couples with children and single-parent households.

New maximum rent payments reduced from 1 January 2012 based on a review of the most up-to-date market data available. The emphasis of the rent review was to ensure value for money for tenants and taxpayers while ensuring people on rent supplement are not priced out of the market for private rented accommodation. The revised limits are applicable to new rent supplement tenancies from January 2012 and existing tenancies on review. Approximately 25,000 rent supplement claims have been awarded in 2012, of which 3,700 were awarded within the last month, indicating that accommodation can be secured within the new limits.

When rents are in excess of the limit, clients are being asked to contact the landlord and renegotiate the rent. Where landlords do not agree to reduce the rent within the limits, staff will discuss the options open to the tenant, including seeking alternative accommodation. Statistics on the numbers who have secured alternative accommodation are not available. Officials administering the scheme advise that customers are securing alternative accommodation within their locality. Any customers who have specific issues with regard to relocating should discuss these issues with departmental officials, who continue to provide support and advice to customers in addressing their accommodation and other needs. There will be no incidence of homelessness due to these changes.

Additional information not given on floor of the House.

Rent supplement is specifically for the benefit of the tenants to assist them with their accommodation needs. The Department does not intend negotiating directly with landlords to reduce rents on behalf of a tenant.

I have recently introduced powers of inquiry for appropriate staff to request formally and oblige landlords to provide information in respect of their rent supplement tenants, principally to verify the agreed rent and existence of the tenancy. This measure will improve both the governance and oversight arrangements in place and complement existing compliance arrangements which the Department has in place with the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The last sentence spoken by the Minister is completely and utterly wrong as there will be homelessness due to this measure. Those people who cannot find accommodation in the areas affected, where the rent supplement rates have been substantially reduced, are being displaced from areas in which they and their families have laid down their roots. They will be homeless. While they may not be captured by the homeless agency, they will be homeless by virtue of the Minister's steps.

The Minister is a bulk purchaser of a service. Does she not agree that the Department, through local authorities, already negotiates directly with landlords? Why does she refuse point blank in this instance to negotiate the reductions in rent with the landlords rather than through tenants who already are vulnerable? The Department and not the tenant negotiates in the case of the rental accommodation scheme.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy and I have discussed this issue previously. Rent supplement is intended as a short-term renting scheme for people who have lost their jobs and who expect to find new employment within a short period. Over the past decade, the numbers relying on this scheme have grown enormously. The purpose of the scheme is to provide a rent supplement to persons who require that supplement because they are not in employment. I have said previously that it is our intention to reform the scheme in a way that will provide for its transfer to the local authorities. I agree with the Deputy in his reference to local authorities in regard to the rental accommodation scheme. They have housing departments which are experts on the provision and acquisition of housing. The community welfare service staff in my Department are not experts on housing, rather they are experts in giving monetary assistance on a monetary basis to persons in need of assistance and they do this with great consideration and care. As I indicated to the Deputy, more than 25,000 rent supplement claims have been awarded to date in 2012. One must bear in mind that the total number we anticipate this year is 92,000. To date, we have had more than 25,000 people negotiating claims, of which 3,700 relate to this month. That indicates that people are negotiating.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We know people are negotiating and they are doing so from a position in which they are in severe distress. They have no choice because the Minister will not meet her responsibility in that regard. She mentioned the rental accommodation scheme. Why are the numbers under that scheme reducing? According to the Revised Estimates for public services in 2012, the numbers under the scheme have shrunk from 6,800 to 6,300 and the Minister has outlined her big solution. We have argued about the issue previously and the Minister referred to the local authorities. Why does she not give them some of the 230,000 vacant housing units across the State? There are only 100,000 families on local authority housing lists. They are the ones in need of accommodation and many of them are in receipt of rent supplement. I have never supported the notion of the State subsidising private landlords. I have always argued that it should provide social housing. Why is the Minister not delivering the NAMA houses and the empty units around the country to the local authorities, rather than continuing to subsidise private landlords?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The issue concerning the NAMA houses, an important potential resource, is under negotiation between my colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, and NAMA. The Department of Social Protection commands approximately 40% of the private rental market. There has been a fall at historic levels in the value of housing and property assets and the Deputy is seriously suggesting those who rent privately – they account for 60% of the private rental market - should have their rent driven up by the Department oin order to benefit private landlords.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Nobody is suggesting that.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is just-----

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The private landlords need to give value for money on their tenancies. I have advised Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh that in the past five years the country has spent €2.36 billion on rent supplement. That is a great deal of money in anybody's language. I share any concern the Deputy may have about any individual in distress, but the officials in the Department, community welfare officers, have been extremely careful to be diligent towards those who are renting and who may have special requirements.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is just not true.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please allow the Minister to speak.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is the exact opposite.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is living in a bubble.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are in an exceptionally difficult financial position and Sinn Féin is suggesting the Department should push up private rents.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, we are not suggesting that.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have suggested money should be spent on social housing and given to local authorities.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Snodaigh, please resume your seat.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have never suggested that private landlords or their like should get any extra funding.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Snodaigh, please resume your seat.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is misrepresenting me, absolutely.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The time for this question is up. We must move on to Question No. 15.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Ó Snodaigh has just made allegations-----

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have not made any allegations.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----about staff in the Department of Social Protection.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I did not make any allegation against any member of the Department's staff. Stop misrepresenting what I say.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Ó Snodaigh has not accepted that the staff in the Department of Social Protection are working very hard.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I did not say anything about the staff. I said the Minister's Department was not doing its job, which is to negotiate with landlords. I did not make any insinuation about the community welfare officers.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The staff are the Department.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We are moving to Question No. 15 in the name of Deputy Cowen.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The staff are the Department. I am glad Deputy Ó Snodaigh has withdrawn his comment about them.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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He has nothing to withdraw because he never made an allegation in the first place.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have not withdrawn anything because I never made such a comment in the first place. I cannot withdraw an allegation I did not make.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Snodaigh, please. We are moving to Question No. 15.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should stop misrepresenting me. Every single time on Priority Questions she misrepresents me. Maybe she needs to get her ears cleaned.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We are moving on to Question No. 15 in the name of Deputy Cowen.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Ó Snodaigh never objected before, so obviously he has been holding a lot of it back.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I did but the Minister does not listen.