Dáil debates

Thursday, 28 June 2012

10:30 am

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The House will agree that the flooding that occurred overnight was devastating and traumatic, especially in Cork and Belfast. It has caused villages and towns, including Clonakilty and Douglas, to shut down and to deal with the damage this morning. The local authorities should be commended on acting on the early warning system notice received yesterday to minimise the damage and to prevent lives being lost. The Government should ensure that all possible assistance is given to the people affected in these areas.

Flash flooding is becoming more prevalent and it is crucial that as much preparation as possible is carried out to limit damage to homes and businesses. Unfortunately, flooding in the Shannon basin has been a regular occurrence over the decades and little is done to prevent damage. There appears to be confusion about acting on early warning systems. Currently the OPW, Waterways Ireland and the ESB are charged with monitoring the Shannon. No single agency is accountable or in charge of taking action when early warning signs are put in place. The Government should put in place a protocol urgently to ensure that actions are streamlined and implemented. Water levels should be reviewed urgently and a protocol should be put in place for the opening of gates down river when there is heavy rainfall.

Farmers along the Shannon maintain that summer flooding is becoming more frequent and severe. We know that this June has been the wettest on record. This is seriously affecting farmers and their ability to manage grazing and access to fodder. Farmers in the region are genuinely concerned about costs and about being able to provide for their families. Will the Government confirm today that a protocol will be put in place for early warning systems on the River Shannon and that one agency will be given overall responsibility?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I enjoin the Deputy in expressing concern, support and solidarity with the households and businesses that have witnessed devastating flooding overnight. I enjoin him also in commending not only the local authorities but all the emergency services which have been working since yesterday evening on dealing with this emergency in many areas.

I wish to bring the House up to date on what is taking place. The national co-ordination group for emergency management is meeting at present to assess the situation nationally and to work out any supports that may be needed at local level. The group includes the OPW, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Department of Defence, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the fire services and Met Éireann. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government will provide an update on the situation and the response following the conclusion of the meeting under way at the moment. A protocol is in place for when heavy rain is forecast. Met Éireann contacts each relevant local authority likely to be affected. They put in place their risk management processes, which are already worked out. All local authorities are asked to send flood situation reports, if any, to the national co-ordination group.

Following overnight flooding parts of Cork appear be the worst affected. Our first concern is for the safety and well-being of citizens, households, businesses and for all those directly affected. The Cork county and city crisis management teams convened this morning to co-ordinate the response to the flooding. Cork County Council activated its flood response plan at 4 a.m. due to the severe flooding affecting parts of the county. Approximately 50 millimetres of rain fell between 1 a.m. and 4 a.m. and there have been reports of up to 70 millimetres of rain in some parts of the county. Saturated ground due to the wettest June on record has exacerbated the situation. The towns worst affected include areas of Douglas, Bandon, Mallow, Glanmire, Togher and Rathcormac and severe flooding has also affected Clonakilty. Road blockages have been reported on the N71 road at Clonakilty, rendering it impassible at some locations and access to and from Douglas is severely limited. Several roads in County Cork are also affected. Electricity supplies have already been restored by the ESB in 8,000 of the 10,000 homes affected during the night in areas of Clonakilty and parts of some Cork City suburbs.

Some €44.5 million has been allocated to flood risk management schemes nationally, including the Mallow south and Mallow west schemes, the Fermoy, Bandon and Skibbereen schemes and the Ballymakeera scheme.

Deputy Troy raised a specific point about co-ordination. There is an ongoing situation in respect of the Shannon Callows area. I am familiar with the problem and I will ensure that the national co-ordination group is mindful of it, although it is not among the areas most seriously affected in this bout of flooding. I realise there is ongoing flooding there and that it has affected lands for many years.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome that the national co-ordination group is meeting and look forward to receiving an update on the matter. Can the Minister confirm that resources will not be an issue in tackling the flooding problems in the areas mentioned? These areas have been badly affected by the rain that fell overnight and county councils and emergency services throughout the country are understaffed.

Unfortunately the issues arising in the River Shannon basin are very serious. Hundreds of farmers and thousands of acres have been affected by flooding for the last several weeks and I can only imagine the problems were exasperated by last night's rainfall. I ask that a protocol be put in place between the three agencies that monitor the river and that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine engage with the farming community with a view to providing assistance to affected areas.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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In regard to the supports available for flood management schemes, I was anxious to protect this vital area in the context of last year's adjustments to the public capital programme. Climate change is affecting our weather patterns. We are experiencing wetter summers, as was predicted, and we have just come through the wettest June on record. For this reason, the allocation through the OPW for flood amelioration schemes is €44.5 million this year. Even though money was much more plentiful during the boom time, €23 million was allocated in 2007 and €24 million was allocated in 2008. We have significantly increased the quantum of money as well as getting better value for our expenditure due to reduced construction prices. I can provide Deputy Troy with an indication of the specific works that are ongoing but this matter is subject to constant review by the OPW in order to ensure we provide the best possible protection.

During the boom time construction was allowed on flood plains because of bad planning, which should never have been tolerated. This is another legacy of the Celtic tiger which we are left to address.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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This week two of the Minister's Cabinet colleagues from Fine Gael called on the Government to breach its commitments under the Croke Park agreement. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, called for the suspension of pay increments in the same week as the Government yet again breached its own salary cap for the new chief executive of the VHI. The Tánaiste responded to the soundings from his Fine Gael colleagues by asking Ministers not to get out of bed expressing views on Croke Park or the budget every Monday morning. The Minister, Deputy Howlin, knows better than anyone that any attempt by the Government to withdraw increments will disproportionately hit low paid public servants and new entrants. I will set out the facts for him and, more important, his Fine Gael colleagues. Higher grades in the public service have a single pay point and increments do not apply. By contrast, a clerical officer on a starting salary of just over €20,000 would take 17 years and 13 increments to reach the maximum salary of €33,000. The Secretary General, however, enjoys a single pay point of €200,000.

Can the Minister clarify to the Dáil whether the payment of increments to public sector workers are covered and protected by the Croke Park agreement and guarantee that the Government will not breach its commitments and will protect the earning power and living standards of low and medium paid public servants?

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Go on Minister, yes or no.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy McDonald will be fully aware that I am a strong supporter of the Croke Park agreement. I have published and commented on the two reviews that have been carried out on the agreement to date and I am strongly of the view that it has delivered significant savings to the State, including payroll costs of €1.5 billion and non-payroll costs to supplement that. Equally important is that the Croke Park infrastructure has afforded a mechanism for significant reform, which has not been fully recognised by some of the commentariat. We have moved people, delivered services differently and downsized. In the first two months of 2012 more than 8,000 people left the public service. Chaos was predicted as result but the ability to redeploy, change rosters and move things - an infrastructure that many of my colleagues in Europe envy - allowed us to make fundamental changes in the way services were delivered in an atmosphere of industrial peace. This is extremely important in terms of the perception of Ireland and our attractiveness to inward investment.

I am aware that in advance of the Croke Park agreement elements of increments were regarded as core pay. That has been adjudicated by the Labour Court. I have already expressed my view on addressing the quantum of pay. We have imposed a cap on civil servants for the first time so that no civil servant is paid more than €200,000. We also imposed a cap on pay in semi-States. Deputy McDonald spoke about breaching that cap. I will explain the pay scale in detail on another occasion when I have more time but, as the Deputy will be aware, it is an indicative scale of relativities. We need to be honest in recognising that getting people with the skills required for some of the jobs that need to be done in the public interest and the public service requires a degree of flexibility. I have indicated that but I have appointed nobody and have authorised no payment in excess of the cap of €250,000 that I announced in respect of the semi-State sector. When one considers that only 18 months ago some individuals were in receipt of salaries that were multiples of that cap, one gets a sense of how far we have come. We need to achieve a balance between what is right in terms of driving State industries to be productive and deliver on jobs, which is the No. 1 priority for this State, while at the same ensuring solidarity in both the private and public sector in this time of difficulty. One can also see the revolution that is taking place in the private sector in regard to exorbitantly high pay rates.

I am anxious to negotiate and interact with the trade union movement, as I do all the time, to get the best value. As long as the unions that are signed up to the Croke Park agreement deliver their side of the bargain, the Government is committed to delivering its side.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure the irony is not lost on people when the Minister speaks about solidarity and pats himself on the back for pay caps of €200,000 and €250,000. He cannot confirm to the Dáil or the people that low paid public servants will not be attacked again and that their increments are safe. I asked him a straightforward question.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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He answered it.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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He responded with waffle.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps the Deputy will ask a supplementary question.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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He spoke about pay ceilings. He breached them repeatedly in respect of his own special advisers and we are now presented with the scandalous situation of a salary of €238,727 for the new man coming into the VHI. In that context, I think the Minister can be clear with us and I will put the question to him in a straightforward way. I do not want to hear about elements or parts. I want him to tell the Dáil that the increments for low paid public workers are secure and that the Government will honour its commitments on pay to people who are already struggling. Are their increments secure, yes or no?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There is a certain irony in taking lectures on the use of public funds from Sinn Féin right now.

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Inkgate.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should answer the question.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If Deputies do not mind, this is a democratic forum. I know Sinn Féin Members like to shout people down but we would like to be heard.

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should talk to his own party members.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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It is not "The Muppet Show" on this side of the House.

Photo of Jack WallJack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Deputy Tóibín is the muppet over there.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Deputy Tóibín should not call Members muppets.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There is a certain irony in Sinn Féin Members lecturing people on claiming expenses or spending public money.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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We put less in our pockets than Government Members.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The taxpayer pays out and the highest claimants are in the Sinn Féin Party. We are determined to establish solidarity in the public service. We have made more strides in the past 12 months than in the history of the State. To do this in the context of people's constitutional and legal rights is very difficult. The Deputy is much more attached to the soundbite than the reality. The Government is more concerned with doing it than the rhetoric.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should answer the question.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will repeat myself for clarity. In so far as, and as long as, the public service unions deliver and adhere to their side of the Croke Park agreement, the Government will adhere to its side.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach is heading to Europe for a European summit but I suggest it might be more appropriate if he goes to Ballsbridge rather than Brussels.

Photo of Eamonn MaloneyEamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Is the horse show on?

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Today, the annual general meeting of AIB is being held. The Taoiseach is heading to Brussels to talk about debt relief. AIB is a Government-owned bank in a pivotal and important position. The Government has backed all resolutions for debate and passage at the AIB annual general meeting. The Government has accepted highly questionable accounts and has voted through and accepted all of the directors, including the publicly appointed directors, for re-election.

Most dangerous of all, the Government has agreed to the reappointment of the auditors, KPMG, which has been in charge of auditing AIB for ten years. That ten-year period included a period of gross under-provisioning during the property frenzy and the collapse because property was overvalued on the balance sheet. The audit fees extracted by KPMG during that period amount to more than €50 million. The company is obviously not giving value for money. Why is it also granted the audit for Irish Life & Permanent and other banking basketcases owned by the Government? Is the Minister satisfied that there has been no tender in ten years and that the company is still auditing the accounts? Is the company providing value for money? The Government could surely save money by cutting audit fees and capping audit fees.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy mentioned that the Taoiseach is on his way to Brussels with the Tánaiste for a very important European summit. The agenda item we have sought for the best part of a year, to refocus the EU commitment to growth and jobs, will be crystallised today with concrete measures to the value of €130 million. That will have an impact on our requirement to stimulate the economy. I will bring specific proposals on that to the Government shortly. The Minister for Finance and I will meet the president of the European Investment Bank to deal with that issue.

Deputy Ross also makes mention of a large issue of great focus over the next coming days. We need a resolution to the ongoing banking crisis in order for the domestic economy to recover. We need a solution to the eurozone crisis and we have brought proposals to the table in that regard.

The Deputy specifically mentioned AIB. I do not intend to make good, bad or indifferent comments about specific audit firms but we are fundamentally examining the way we procure any service. AIB is not a State company but is largely owned by the State. The State has invested a huge volume of taxpayers' money. I assure the Deputy we are driving new procurement arrangements to ensure all services, whether audit or legal services, are properly tendered. I am not familiar with the specifics because it is not in my direct area of responsibility but I will pass on Deputy Ross's views to the Minister for Finance.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I appreciate the fact that the Minister is taking this on board but the audit fees are a scandal and should be capped immediately.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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There should be a tender for audit.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It is a racket and is run by the big four auditors, who pass it around for years. It disappoints me that the Government, as full owner, is continuing to allow this racket to continue. There is an opportunity for the Minister to say to the House that it will not continue, that auditing will be put out to tender for all State-owned banks and that he will insist the fees are lower. Fees amount to €50 million over a number of years and €4 million for KPMG last year. I do not see why we should be so coy about naming the auditors involved because they are responsible and are receiving the money. This is a favoured company that has not performed up to scratch.

The insolvency Bill will be published tomorrow. Is the Minister satisfied that the horrors it will bring, in terms of greater mortgage debt relief, are provided for properly-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a separate issue.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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-----by the auditors appointed by the Government today? Are we sure the audits carried out give us the comfort we need to be certain there will be no further need for recapitalisation of the banks?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The procurement of services is central to the reform agenda of my Department. Areas that were closed shops in the past in terms of audit services and, more especially, legal services are properly tended for so that we get better value. I intend to do that. I have already had discussions with private sector firms that have innovative ways of carrying out the tender process. It will migrate to all public tendering as soon as possible.

I do not know the Deputy misspoke when he referred to the horrors of debt relief that will flow from the personal insolvency Bill. Most people do not regard addressing unsustainable debt in households as a horror. It is something we work towards. The personal insolvency Bill will be outlined in detail by the Minister for Justice and Equality tomorrow. It will be one component part-----

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It is a horror for families involved.

11:00 am

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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-----of a suite of measures that make it clear that the Government wants people to retain roofs over their heads. We want to ensure there is a sustainable path to pay debt. The Deputy asked whether we have factored in the impact of debt write-off in terms of the recapitalisation of banks. That was part of the assessment by the BlackRock group and others last year. They determined the volume of money required to recapitalise fully the banks to meet any contingency that might realistically arise. That included the mortgage impairment they foresaw.

Our position, therefore, is that there is no need for further recapitalisation.