Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Since the election, the Government has announced a jobs initiative, a jobs protection budget and an action plan for jobs, all of which were meant to create approximately 100,000 jobs by 2016. However, when one considers the Government's own statistics in a no-spin zone, the number of people who are unemployed continues to rise. The quarterly national household survey released last week shows the number of Irish people in employment has fallen by approximately 38,900, which is a damning indictment of the Government's initiatives over the past 15 months. Moreover, the unemployment rate has risen from approximately 14.1% to 14.8%, employment has fallen in nine of the 14 economic sectors over the past year and in a highly worrying trend, long-term unemployment has increased by a further 25,000, from 7.8% to 8.9%. Consequently, the position continues to worsen significantly for many people.

The Taoiseach had stated he wanted his Ministers to become obsessed with jobs.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Yes. Jobs for the boys.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Clearly, they have not become obsessed with jobs because unfortunately, the initiatives are not making any impact whatsoever. I put it to the Taoiseach the initiatives the Government has taken have contributed to the worsening of the position. At its most basic, the decision to reduce the capital investment programme resulted in a net loss of 8,000 construction jobs in labour-intensive capital projects, which is something that could have been avoided. The increase in VAT only further dampened consumer demand in what already was a weak domestic economy. Moreover, some of the initiatives that led to increased redundancy costs for employers constituted a further disincentive to job creation and to employment. Above all, the failure to create any pressure on the banking sector to release funding to the SME sector, as evidenced by all reports and analysis, including that produced recently by Mr. John Trethowan in the credit review committee, gives further evidence regarding initiatives and a policy direction that have made this situation worse.

The final statistic comes from the Minister for Finance, who in April of this year revised downwards significantly his predictions from one year ago of employment until 2015. Last year, the Government predicted net job creation from 2011 to 2015 of 101,000 but this year it predicts a figure of 61,000----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question please. Thank you.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----which is a decline of 40,000. This appeared under the radar, buried in the Department of Finance's own statistics released this April.

Does the Taoiseach accept the Government's jobs initiatives are failing to make an impact and are not improving the position in respect of employment in Ireland?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not accept the Deputy's suggestions at all. Obviously the live register speaks for itself. I am extremely unhappy at the numbers of people who are unemployed and why would I not be? The entire effect of Government is to deal with the reality of the position the country faces. This is compounded, as the Deputy is aware, by the impact outside the country in respect of the growth of other European economies. As an exporting nation, it is extremely important for us to be involved in this regard. The Government produced its jobs action programme in February. Its purpose is to create 100,000 new jobs by 2016, which is the end of this period of government. It contains 270 propositions, progress on which will be published on a quarterly basis. The programme is being monitored and overseen by the Departments of the Taoiseach and Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

Clearly, Deputy Martin is only too well aware of the difficulties faced by so many businesses, including retail and small businesses, in the context of indigenous confidence in Ireland, as well as access to finance from banks. This is the reason the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is pursuing the partial loan credit guarantee scheme and the introduction of the micro-finance agency, proposals for which I expect to come before the Government next week with the capacity to leverage resources up to €100 million for very small operators in that line. This is the reason the Government did not increase income tax to avoid imposing additional taxes on work and employment. This is the reason the Minister of State with specific responsibility for jobs and small businesses has involved himself deeply with the small business associations and with small operators. His purpose is to bring about a realisation that help and assistance is available and that while this environment is economically difficult, there is a big movement in the labour market. This movement comes off the live register into the world of work. Unfortunately, the level on the register is too high and I regret that.

At the other end of the spectrum, the change from FÁS to SOLAS, linked to the Department of Education and Skills, will become for further education what the opportunities in the HEA's universities are for young people, be they in TUS, JobBridge or Springboard, allowing them to get back into a process where they can retrain, upskill and change direction. As Deputy Martin is well aware, when one speaks to any of the people involved in modern industry one learns that jobs and careers can change every three or four years. It is very important that the system we have is able to deal with those changes. It is true the number of unemployed is too high. It fluctuates every summer, as the Deputy knows, with those who come off the back to education allowances, and so on.

The Government's programme is a capital programme of €17 billion. We inherited an economy that was badly smashed up. There was not, and is not, the money to do all the things we would like to do, or to spend effectively on job creation. The Deputy is well aware that the Government now has to borrow €3 billion every year for Anglo Irish Bank. Think of what we could do with that money if things had been different.

That is the situation we have to deal with and we will continue to deal with it. Jobs, job priorities and the creation of jobs are central to the Government's focus.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Problem solved.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach is dealing with it very badly. That is the problem. It is not about job career changes and so on but about access to employment and people getting jobs, people who are well qualified but unemployed, and long-term unemployed.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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This is your legacy.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The problem people have------

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is your legacy.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Everybody-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Except yourself.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Do not join in the chorus, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Everybody in this House is-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a supplementary question? There is a need for one.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----interested in creating jobs. The problem is, people are getting fed up with official documentation, launches and so on-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a supplementary question?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Take the launch in February, for example, when the Government claimed it would create 100,000 jobs. The Department of Finance's documentation a month and a half later claimed there would be 61,000 jobs, some 40,000 of a difference.

A Deputy:

Deputy Martin has a newfound interest in his country.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is why people are cynical.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can I have a supplementary question, please?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking a supplementary question on a matter raised under the Standing Order, which I am entitled to do.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Not speeches, but a supplementary question.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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You should be ashamed of yourself.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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You had 14 years to do something.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking a question on a matter raised, namely, unemployment. I am simply putting it to the Taoiseach-----

A Deputy:

Waffling.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will you stay quiet?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----that the SME sector is hurting very badly and is not getting access to credit in spite of what the Taoiseach claimed. His suggestion of a partial loan guarantee scheme is marginal and will have little or no impact in terms of employment in the SME sector, or access to credit.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can I have the question? You are over time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The measures the Taoiseach has taken since the budget, from the pension levy which took €500 million from pensioners-----

A Deputy:

Which you introduced.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----to the reduction in the capital programme, from the extra costs on business in terms of redundancy costs and so on-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, can I have your question? You are over time and I will have to cut you off.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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All of these are making the situation worse.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is about time-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will not ask you again, Deputy. I will cut off your microphone if you do not ask your question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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With the greatest respect, a Cheann Comhairle, I have been interrupted non-stop since I started. I am entitled to ask a question.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You asked a question. There is a minute allowed for a supplementary question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am entitled to raise the matter-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are now on your second minute. Hurry up and ask your question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am entitled to ask a question.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are not entitled to question the Chair.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not questioning the Chair at all.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I told you a minute is allowed for a supplementary question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am endeavouring to ask a question on a matter raised, which I am entitled to do under Standing Orders.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A supplementary question, not another speech. Thank you.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not another speech.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputies over there stay quiet and give us a chance?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please resume your seat.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I asked a long time ago to be facilitated by the Deputies opposite but they do not like hearing the truth. The truth is not good for the people who are unemployed.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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That is a great question.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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For somebody to stand up in the Chamber who abdicated his responsibilities-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----did not attend his meetings in Europe, failed utterly-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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How dare the Taoiseach? I have a strong record in Europe. He said something similar yesterday------

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy resume his seat?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is shouting people down.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I ask for that to be withdrawn, Sir.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Get Willie to hold your jacket.

A Deputy:

Empty chairs.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Do you mind? On both sides, Deputies are not impressing anybody. I ask the Taoiseach to reply.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin will understand that nobody over here will be intimidated by that show of vociferous response. The Deputy is just very touchy because members of his Government failed to turn up at so many meetings in Europe when they were expected to, which speaks for itself.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is an untruth.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Give an example.

Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Check the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I do not know what the question is.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The issue I raised was jobs, plus how the Taoiseach answers the questions he is asked in this House.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Small and medium enterprises all over the country have been crying out in anxiety and concern-----

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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They are still crying.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----because they have never been able to get access to finance from banks. That is why both pillar banks committed to the Government each gave new lending of €3.5 billion this year. That is why they attend before the Economic Management Council on a regular basis. Deputy Martin is insinuating that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation should not introduce a partial loan credit guarantee scheme even though it might affect, to their benefit, more than 1,000 small firms which are looking for money.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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If the Government introduced a proper one-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He suggests the measures being taken to introduce a micro-finance agency should not be followed through either.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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It is woefully inadequate.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is woefully inadequate and will not do the job.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He ridicules the fact that more than 11,000 jobs were created in the hospitality sector as a result of the reduction in VAT. He ridicules the suggestion that the Government should not increase income tax so that there would be no extra tax on jobs. He ridicules the suggestion that, for example, the renegotiation of the memorandum of understanding with the troika meant the Government was able to restore the minimum wage which his Government reduced for 30,000 people on low incomes.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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How many jobs did you create?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He ridicules the suggestion that the Government was also able to renegotiate with the troika to take more than 300,000 people from liability for the universal social charge. These were the decisions his Government made which this one has to reverse.

I am the first to accept that when I travel around the country and meet people in every walk of life-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I recommend Athlone.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----their overriding ambition is to have a job and be in gainful employment. What the Government is doing, and making no apology for it, is shifting out of the rut of hopelessness we inherited to a situation where people can have, not only confidence but also see there is opportunity and that jobs can and will be created. In the course of the six weeks of the referendum campaign we pointed out, time and again-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Taoiseach point out anything to do with a debate?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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They were all up Croagh Patrick.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----the continued investment by foreign direct investors in this country in job creation, including in Limerick, where for more than 20 years Deputy O'Dea's Government refused to do anything about the Shannon Development area.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The numbers are getting worse.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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There are no prospects.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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At last this Government made the decision to open up a bright new future, with jobs and employment, not just in the Shannon zone but in the entire region. I do not accept, therefore, the remarks of Deputy Martin.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They smack of absolute hypocrisy, from a Fianna Fáil Deputy who reneged on his responsibility and let down our country.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will not ask Deputies again. Please cool down. I call Deputy McDonald.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am glad the boys have simmered down.

This morning we have a tale of two reports. On the one hand there is the troika's sixth review of Ireland's bailout programme, which has yet again been given to parliamentarians in the Bundestag and leaked to the media before Members of this Dáil or the public in this State have had any sight of it. On the other, there is an ESRI report which was not an ESRI report, rather a working document which has been withdrawn from the State-sponsored organisation's website. By any standards, it was a very shoddy piece of work. It was based on data from 2004 and 2005. It was not peer-reviewed internally or externally. It has been spun and used by some people to create the impression that the hundreds of thousands of people who are out of work at the moment are somehow living a gilt-edged lifestyle. I ask the Taoiseach to make clear in the Dáil that he understands that is not the case. There is no doubt that people at work are struggling to pay their bills. We know that. There is no doubt that people are struggling as a direct consequence of the policies the Government is pursuing. The Taoiseach has accused other Members of this House of abdicating their responsibilities. I want him to take responsibility for his position and for his decisions.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He never does that.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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He should acknowledge to the hundreds of thousands of families across this State who are struggling to make ends meet, some of whom are in work and some of whom are on welfare, that the Government is responsible for that. Finally, I ask him to reassure us that this Government has not attempted in any cynical way to use the ESRI as part of a strategy to drive down welfare rates in the next budget.

Derek Nolan (Galway West, Labour)
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That is outrageous.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We need that reassurance to be given to the Dáil today.

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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That is disgraceful.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would like to begin by responding to the Deputy's comment about documentation being given to the Bundestag. When the Minister for Finance brought the draft report before the Government yesterday, it was made perfectly clear that he had agreed to allow the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform to access the document. That is the normal procedure.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy whose mobile phone is ringing to switch it off. A notice outside the Chamber states that no phones are allowed in here.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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His team must be playing at the weekend.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is a deliberate distraction.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As Deputy McDonald is well aware, it is a requirement that copies of the reports be given to the funding countries. Arising from the previous occasion, when a European Commission document was leaked, the Government made it clear that in future, such reports would be given simultaneously to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform and that the reports would remain confidential until they had been completely signed off. I want the Deputy to understand that it is not a case of taking particular documents and giving them to particular international committees. That matter was rectified after the last leak.

I would like to respond to the comments that have been made this morning about the ESRI document. The ESRI is an independent organisation. I could not and would not stand over any contact from the Government to an independent organisation saying that particular documentation must be withdrawn or taken down. Why should I? The manner in which the Government makes decisions to create employment and opportunities for our people and follows them up is the most important element of what we have as a society. Of course I recognise that many people in this country are struggling. Of course I understand the despair that some people feel. I empathise with their frustration about the fact that the scale of their job expectations for themselves and their families is not being delivered as fast as we would like. Of course I recognise that people in negative equity and those whose sons and daughters have gone to America, Australia, Britain or elsewhere are struggling. There is no question about that. There is clear evidence to indicate that people in Greece, Cyprus and Spain are struggling similarly. People in many other countries are also worried. This Government will accept its responsibility for the decisions it makes. The Deputy can take it that the Government's priority is to deal with the central issue, which is the need for Ministers and Ministers of State in their Departments to focus continually on methods of job creation and opportunity for young and old people who want to get involved in their own areas and communities and contribute to this country. I want the Deputy to understand that clearly.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I want the Taoiseach to understand that struggling families do not want his recognition, understanding or empathy. They want the Taoiseach and his Government colleagues to take responsibility for the circumstances in which we now find ourselves. More to the point, they want to see action that yields results for them and their families. As the Taoiseach said, the ESRI is an independent organisation. It receives substantial State funding. Many people have been asking why this document was taken off the ESRI website. A more pertinent question would relate to how this report was put up there in the first place.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is a shoddy and misleading piece of work. I ask the Taoiseach to make it clear to the Dáil and the people who are viewing this session that he understands well that those who are living on welfare are not doing so by choice and, more to the point, are not living the high life. That is simply not the case. A low income is a low income. People are struggling as a direct consequence of the Government's bad policy decisions.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please. We are over time.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I take it from the Taoiseach's comments that he continues to have full confidence in the ESRI, its independence and its capacity to give thought-provoking and useful information to policy makers. I would raise a question mark over that. I think this document was incendiary and misleading. I also believe it will be used-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not a question of what you believe.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----and has been used by some people-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is a question of what you are asking.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----to argue for further hardship and further cutbacks-----

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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This is a Second Stage speech.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----aimed particularly at those on welfare.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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This is a speech.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Taoiseach to assure the House-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is still a speech.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----that this bad and shoddy piece of work will not be misused for the Government's own ends.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call the Taoiseach. I do not know what the question is, but I am sure he will do his best.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I think the questions are clear, a Cheann Comhairle.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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We want a definitive response.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not speak for the ESRI. I listened to the comments that were made this morning by the author of the report. I also listened to the comments of the director of the ESRI. I do not speak for either of them. I do not see why we cannot have an opportunity to discuss these issues through the Oireachtas committees. Unemployment and employment are the most pertinent and fundamental issues that are facing this country and its people. I do not accept the assertion, which the Deputy always blithely throws in, that all of these policies are bad. I am sure she accepts that 11,000 jobs have been created in the hospitality sector. I am sure she is pleased that PayPal will create 1,000 jobs in County Louth, which is the constituency of her party leader. In many areas, this will not be turned around in the next two years. We are dealing with reality here. The Deputy seems to be asserting that the Government should not empathise with those who are living frustrated lives and are under serious pressure because of the current economic circumstances. Does she believe we should not try to understand their needs? Does she think we should not be asking young people what they would like to do?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Government has done a lot of that.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Deputy has done a fair bit of it herself.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not getting us anywhere.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does she want us to stop asking them what kind of upskilling or retraining courses they would like to pursue, so the Government can reflect that through the State agencies?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not happening.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does she think it is all right to live in an ivory tower? Is that what she assumes? I want her to understand that the Government is engaging vigorously with people about their concerns and anxieties. We are listening and we will act, in so far as we can, in the interests of the nation and the people. Our job is to rectify the public finances and the legacy we inherited. The Government must make decisions that provide opportunities for people to work in gainful employment.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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When is it going to start?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is no joke for those who are on social protection. Deputy McDonald can cast aspersions on that in any way she wants. The important thing is that such people should be given an opportunity to have hope and confidence by means of a demonstration that good Government decisions actually lead to employment. If people are happy in themselves that they can contribute to their own family circumstances, that will be to the good and the benefit of their localities. Regardless of whether this document is complete, whether it used correct methodologies or whether it is to be reformed, my understanding is that it is a working document. I do not see why the Oireachtas committee dealing with this matter cannot talk about these issues. The important thing is to listen to those who are on social protection as they speak about their circumstances and to point out that assistance is available to get such people out of that rut. That is what this Government will focus on for the duration of its remit.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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As we organise ceremonies to mark the centenary of 1916 and the ensuing War of Independence, the continuing European crisis looms as a forbidding backdrop. Our debate in this country has always been skewed by "follow the money" mantras which deflect from what could be a bigger master-plan. As in the Treaty negotiations, when Lloyd George described negotiating with de Valera as trying to pick up mercury with a fork, the federalisation of Europe debate, one of rational thought, views and opinions, is also like trying to pick up mercury.

Are we being sleepwalked into a federalised Europe? If so, what do the Irish sovereign people think of this and is it something we want? Federalism will downgrade Ireland to a province of Europe and, consequently, downgrade Leinster House to a very nice but, in effect, county council office. With economic policies being the starting block for building a federal Europe, what are we looking at and are we being played by the Pied Piper of Europe down a road where we may relinquish our sovereignty completely?

This debate is one that needs to be addressed. I would like to hear the Taoiseach's views on what many would see as failed plans to federalise Europe and how Ireland may well be set to revert to the dominion status of 1949, this time to Europe rather than to the Commonwealth.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The answer to the Deputy's question is "No". Ireland is not going to be walked into any federalisation of Europe. That was rejected by the people on more than one occasion. What is required here is to make political decisions, both within the eurozone and at a European level, to deal with the European banking crisis in the first instance and look at where the Union of 500 million people expects to be in the next ten years. It also means looking at the opportunities that exist through the Single Market, the development of the single patent digital market and for concluding trade agreements outside the European Union, which means so much potential for this country as an exporting nation. The Deputy's asks if this country going to be walked into a federalised Europe and the answer is "No".

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his very clear and definitive answer "No", to which I will hold him in the House. However, the constant debate in recent months has been totally about further integration and further fiscal union. Chancellor Angela Merkel says we cannot have a solution unless we first get to that full fiscal union. Will the Taoiseach tell Angela Merkel and Germany that the Irish people are not for a federal Europe and that the Irish people are not going to be walked down this road into giving up our sovereignty completely and following the lead of Germany and France, given the way they are dictating the pace of the Union for the future? Will the Taoiseach bring that message to Europe and will he tell Europe that the Irish people are not for a full federalised Europe and not for full integration, and that they will retain their sovereignty into the future?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The European leaders are very well aware of Ireland's position. Ireland has voted over the years in respect of European Union treaty after European Union treaty and the Irish people have made their decisions on that very clear, no more so than in the recent 60-40 decision in respect of the fiscal stability treaty. That is what this is about. It is about consolidating and strengthening the euro within the eurozone. I answered a question yesterday by saying we support in principle the question of a banking union, which is something that would be in every country's interest in regard to having a streamlined, efficient, working banking system across all countries in the eurozone. European leaders are well aware of the importance of sovereignty in a country like this and they are well aware of our attitude towards a federal Europe. Let me repeat it again for the Deputy. His first question was whether we are being sleepwalked into something like a total federal Europe. The answer is "No".