Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Question 11: To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if he will review his policy on the staffing ratios of small rural schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25722/12]

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Some 73 small primary schools were originally due to lose classroom teachers in September 2012 as a result of the budget measure to increase the relevant pupil-teacher thresholds. The staffing appeals board considered appeals from all of the 73 schools that could demonstrate their projected enrolments for September 2012 were sufficient to allow them retain their classroom teachers over the longer term. A total of 35 small schools had their appeals provisionally upheld by the appeals board, subject to confirmation that their actual enrolments in September 2012 reach the required level. In these extremely challenging times, all public servants are being asked to deliver services on a reduced level of resources and teachers in small schools cannot be immune from this requirement.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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We all recognise that nobody can be immune from the austerity required to balance our books. However, does the Minister accept that rural schools are a vital aspect of their communities and, as such, we need to approach this issue sensibly? Other options for improving efficiency could be investigated. For example, his Department spends €2 million on issuing paper pay slips to staff. This is well in excess of the savings projected this year in respect of the loss of teachers in rural schools. I ask him to review the matter and put it to the schools to come up with local solutions. Each of these schools is unique and local solutions may reduce costs while also benefitting the community.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I am sympathetic to the Deputy's argument. The phrase generally used is "small rural schools" but the official terminology refers to the two categories of "schools" and "small schools". There are small schools with as few as two teachers in Dublin and other urban areas, which is nonsense. The value for money report, which is assessing approximately 600 schools with 50 or fewer pupils, has been delayed in the Department due to volumes of work. It is due to be published shortly and we should have a comprehensive debate on it. The delay arose because of the need to assess comprehensive data on school provision. The pattern of school provision reflected a different time and age, when rural population densities were much higher than they are at present and when students travelled to school by foot. Of necessity, the catchment area was much tighter.

I expect that we will have to continue to sustain isolated communities wherever in Ireland they may be. Parents are legally required to send their children to school for a specified period and there is a constitutional obligation to provide for primary education. The categories that I imagine will emerge at the end of this process will be "isolated schools" and "schools". Some kind of support will have to be provided for isolated schools. In the meantime I encourage schools which have the option to amalgamate, co-operate or otherwise cluster to do so.

We are engaging with the Scottish authorities to find out how they are coping with similar problems, particularly in the highlands where the population density is much lower than in Ireland.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I welcome the discussions that are taking place with the Scottish authorities as a move in the right direction. It is difficult at present for small rural schools to make plans. They are haemorrhaging populations through emigration and will also have to deal with the impact of the changes to school transport policy which come into effect next September. It is difficult to plan when one is standing on shifting sand.

If a stay of execution was given to allow them to consider the potential for clustering and demographic changes in the short to medium term, particularly in the context of school transport changes, they would be in a better position to assess their viability. I fear that in some communities children as young as four will have to be bussed or driven long distances on bad roads during the winter. That should not be the objective of our education system.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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One of the reasons we outlined how the process would unfold over three years was to enable rural schools in sparsely populated areas to realise that the policy is not a once off decision.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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The retrospective aspect of it has hurt communities the most.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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It probably has jump started it but the process will continue over the next two school years, including the one that is about to commence in September. School communities in these areas are on notice that they should start planning.

With regard to rationalisation of the transport system, I am more than happy to speak to the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy Cannon. I was presented with contradictory information on the transport system in south County Donegal when I visited the Finn Valley last Friday. We are open to practical solutions where the same bus passes by different schools.

The small schools in urban and outer suburban areas are on clear notice that there is no going back from the current position because they have options. The options are less evident in the communities to which Deputy Naughten refers. This is why we will have to consider a definition for isolated schools - I am speaking aloud rather than setting out a formal policy - as distinct from small schools and other schools. This country eliminated more than 2,000 schools in the 1960s and 1970s for all sorts of reasons and nobody wants to go back there. Whatever we do in the future, it has to work for families, pupils and educational outcomes.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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If communities can come up with solutions that bring about savings can they be constructively examined by the Department so that we do not have one size fits all approach?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Yes, they can.