Dáil debates
Wednesday, 9 May 2012
Leaders' Questions
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's investigation into the "Prime Time Investigates" programme on Fr. Kevin Reynolds revealed a shocking systemic failure that resulted in the undermining of a man's character and reputation. This is a dramatic wake up call for everybody who believes in the value and importance of public sector broadcasting. It appears from the report that not even the simplest norms were applied. The Carragher report is good, clear and concise and RTE has undertaken to take its recommendations on board. Many of the personnel involved are no longer working with the programme. The board of RTE has assured the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources that it will implement all the recommendations in the report and produce quarterly updates. It has also undertaken to engage in a thorough review to assess the cultural and working environment and the prevalence of group-think at RTE.
I welcome those initiatives, but more must be done. In recent times there has been an intense interest in the media in general, in the role and importance of public sector broadcasting and in media ownership and the consequential interaction between the media and the political world. The Leveson inquiry in the UK has been particularly revealing in that context. Can Ireland be sure that some of the practices and activities that took place in other jurisdictions did not and could not occur here? Notwithstanding the existence of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Natural Resources and Agriculture, will the Taoiseach consider the establishment of a specific Oireachtas commission to work on these issues and to hold hearings, accept submissions from the public and interested parties and make recommendations to the Government? These issues go to the core of democracy. We are living in a rapidly changing world that is challenging the most basic assumptions we had about how democracies and societies operate or should operate. It is important that the Oireachtas reflects on this and engages actively with these issues through the operation of such a commission.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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First, it is worthwhile to note that the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, takes to heart the issue of public service broadcasting, what it means for our people and our democracy and the value of a true public service requirement in respect of broadcasting. Second, this episode justifies the Minister's and Government's decision to have the Carragher report produced on what was an appalling situation in respect of an innocent person.
The Minister had a straightforward, face-to-face meeting with the board yesterday and reported on the outcome of that meeting to the Cabinet. The House will be aware that the board is to respond in writing within seven days as to its response to the recommendations of the Carragher report and what it intends to do to implement its findings. The chairman spoke about this yesterday. Members are also aware that significant changes have already been made since the broadcast of that programme.
In respect of Deputy Martin's suggestion of a commission or committee to deal with the broader issues, the Oireachtas committee yesterday held a thorough and wide-ranging discussion about this. There is no reason that a sub-committee of that committee cannot deal with these issues. It would be entitled to hold hearings, as other sub-committees of Oireachtas committees have done, such as the sub-committee of the European Union affairs committee dealing with the fiscal treaty. I do not see why that cannot happen. This is in the interest of all our people and I will make that recommendation known to the chairman of the committee.
It is a matter for the committee whether it decides to do that by way of a sub-committee, with the opportunity to hold hearings and conduct a thorough and comprehensive discussion about public service broadcasting, what it means and how the world of broadcasting has changed utterly in the last number of years through a communications capacity that was never dreamt of a number of years ago. It is fundamentally important for our citizens and for their trust and belief in the quality of public service broadcasting. The Deputy has made a constructive suggestion and I take it to heart.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his response and for coming some distance with me on this matter. I respectfully suggest the existing Oireachtas committee has too many issues on its agenda. One issue with the existing Oireachtas committees is they are covering too many Departments and too many subject matters. In this case, as the committee must consider natural resources, communications and agriculture, it is covering an enormous spectrum and, in my opinion, it in no way has the capacity to deal with the significant issues that must be reflected on and engaged with by the Oireachtas. For example, the report of the advisory group on media mergers illustrated the dramatic changes that have occurred, through technology, to the broadcast and print media. Howsoever the Oireachtas responds to this issue, the group established by it, be it a sub-committee, a separate group or as I have suggested, a commission, should have a status that befits the importance of the issue. It also should be afforded the time, the backup and the resources to give comprehensive deliberation and treatment to this issue in the Oireachtas.
This will be extremely important, given the nature of a fast-moving world, given what Members now know and given what has happened in other jurisdictions both in the United Kingdom and elsewhere. It also is important because regardless of whether one likes it, confidence in public sector broadcasting has been undermined. I am a great believer in public sector broadcasting and passionately believe in it. While I want it to hold forth into the future as an important pillar to our democracy, one cannot continue blindly in the face of the realities that have been revealed. This demands a more sustained and serious response from the Oireachtas.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin is aware that during the previous Government's term of office, there were too many Oireachtas committees and Members on all sides were running from one committee meeting to the next.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is worse now.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As the level of complaint indicated the ability to deal with issues in a real sense did not apply, the Government reduced the numbers of Oireachtas committees. The changes that now are being made will mean the committee dealing with transport will be joined with the committee dealing with communications. While I take the basis of the Deputy's suggestion as being constructive, it will be important for the committee itself to consider how best it might deal with this matter. Rather than having an interminable discussion on this issue, I see no reason the committee cannot decide to set up its own sub-committee to deal specifically with these issues. It could give it a remit of three months, during which time it could be supported and provided with backup to enable it to deal with hearings and a comprehensive range of the debate and then to report back to this House to have a full discussion here on the committee's recommendations, findings or proposals. In fairness to the committee itself, however, it should be allowed to present its views here and were precedent to be followed, a thorough analysis and comprehensive discussion could take place, out of which could come a set of recommendations the House could consider in this Chamber.
In the interest of public service broadcasting, in which the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, has shown a deep interest-----
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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He spends a lot of time there anyway.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----for the good of all and for the strength of our democracy, the committee should be allowed to consider this matter first.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Rabbitte was snared by the Savage.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I think the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, was snared by Tom Savage.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy-----
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That was a major intervention and contribution.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath must have been working on that one.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you. I call Deputy Adams.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As the Taoiseach is aware, the 1916 Proclamation declared the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland. Everyone knows the Fianna Fáil leadership abandoned economic sovereignty to the International Monetary Fund-----
Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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With Sinn Féin's assistance.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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----- the European Central Bank and the European Commission. While the Taoiseach quite rightly denounced this, he then went on to do the same thing.
Yesterday, I asked the Taoiseach about Mr. Mario Draghi's vision for Europe after the austerity treaty. I will give the Taoiseach a second chance to answer the question he failed to answer yesterday.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Taoiseach should go down on his knees.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have some order for the Deputy please?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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If the Taoiseach does not answer, what will the Deputy do then?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have some order for the Deputy please? Thank you.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He said the treaty is a first step towards a fiscal union. Sin an ceist. He stated the national governments across Europe will be obliged to accept the delegation of fiscal sovereignty to some form of central authority. The Taoiseach has indicated his desire to be the Taoiseach who retrieves Irish sovereignty and yet he agrees with handing over fiscal sovereignty to a European central authority. As the Taoiseach is aware he cannot have it both ways, he should tell Members the reason he believes that decisions on tax increases, spending cuts or welfare rates should be made in Brussels or Berlin instead of in Ireland.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is aware that he was associated, in one way or another, with an outfit that spent 30 years and the Border he sought to remove did not move a single inch. The argument he has come up with this morning has been trotted out many times. I have made no secret of the fact that I wish to lead the Government that will retrieve Ireland's economic sovereignty. The way to do this is to get our own house in order, to provide an impetus and a stimulus that will provide jobs and opportunity, will allow our people to use their creativity to grow the economy, will use exports to generate more money for the country and therefore provide the opportunities for the people and for the next generation. This is a difficult challenge and the Deputy is aware of the difference between what the Government spends and what it takes in and the challenges the Government and people face together in sorting this out.
Since Ireland joined the European Union, we always have recognised there are issues that must be dealt with from a central perspective, be it the Common Agricultural Policy, the Common Fisheries Policy, the Structural Funds, the Cohesion Funds or social policy, in which Europe itself has contributed greatly to this country. From this point of view, Ireland always has been both articulate and a strong advocate of the future direction of Europe, irrespective of what Government was in power. As the question was asked of another of Sinn Féin's Members, how many referendums did the Deputy or his party support in respect of the European position over the past 30 years?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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While Deputy Adams has not been in the House for the past 30 years, he now is an elected Member of the Dáil. The road back to the retrieval of economic sovereignty for Ireland is to get out of the programme we are in, to put our own house in order, to use the expertise and creativity of our own people with the opportunity that Europe and beyond presents to retrieve that economic sovereignty, grow the economy and in consequence, provide opportunities for our people to live and work in Ireland, if they so wish. The Government is and will continue to be focused on that area and I hope that on 31 May, the people will give a resounding "Yes" as a vote of confidence to that future, which is in everyone's interest.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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First, and for the record, I am associated with Sinn Féin, a party with a proud history of republicanism and of struggle-----
Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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A history of intimidation and murder.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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----- which has a mandate across this island and which was part of the most historic peace process in western Europe. It was a peace process against which the Taoiseach's party set its face and had to be brought into by the rest of us.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Fine Gael supported it all the way.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy, can you put a question please?
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I can only interpret the Taoiseach's answer as stating the way to get back economic sovereignty is to give it away. That does not make sense.
Does the Taoiseach remember the document I have to hand, namely, the famous five-point plan? Yesterday, the Taoiseach told Members that he supported the growth agenda being advocated by the French President-elect. Given that the Taoiseach is the poster boy for austerity and is the Taoiseach who refuses to ask for a write-down of our private debt, does he intend to return to this manifesto? Does he intend to invest €7 billion in energy, communications and water? Alternatively, perhaps the Government intends to implement the Labour Party's pre-election commitment to establish a strategic investment bank or perhaps it eventually will come round to listen to the sense of the Sinn Féin proposition, which is to take up to €7 billion, over three years, from the National Pensions Reserve Fund and from the European Investment Bank and to get people back to work in that way. As the Taoiseach will not answer the earlier question and now is all in favour of getting people off the dole and back to work, he should indicate which of these plans he will advocate. Will it be the Fine Gael manifesto, the Sinn Féin plan or that of the Labour Party?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Surprise, surprise.
Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Did Deputy Adams think he was independent?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I recall the five point plan very well. It was the Fine Gael programme when in Opposition.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What happened to it? Did the Taoiseach lose it?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It has been subsumed into the Government's programme from now up to 2016, which programme for Government was worked out between the Fine Gael and Labour Parties, who happen to be in Government. That is the programme we are following. It contains a €17 billion capital programme.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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Is it for the banks or the people?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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What about metro north?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It also ensures that the Government looks to providing additional funding. Deputy Adams will be aware that the Government has already regarded the National Pensions Reserve Fund as a contributory factor in the context of infrastructural development in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.
Deputy Adams is the leader of the "No" campaign. It is his face that is being put before the people in the context of the "No" campaign.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Come on now Taoiseach.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have seen - Deputy Adams is aware of this - what can happen to a country in which there is a lack of investor confidence. What Sinn Féin is preaching to the people of this country-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----is not the direction I wish to see them or this country go.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams is leading that campaign.
Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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Where is the patriotism in that?
Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is the face of austerity.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has no answers to the questions on how he intends to close the gap of €10 billion in one year. The Deputy refuses to answer that question.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams should listen to the other side of the argument and the reasons people should vote for the treaty, which includes investor confidence, a guarantee of access to funding as outlined by a European Commissioner yesterday and the capacity for us to put our own house in order for the future. What the Deputy is preaching would lead us in the wrong direction-----
Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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The Greek direction.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----into the darkness of confusion and lack of confidence and conviction.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Sinn Féin is good at that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are buried in debt.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A "Yes" vote leads us to a continued stream of investment decisions for our country and to our people having an insurance and guarantee that this country will always have access to back-up funding, should it be required and, to put our own house in order. I am sure the Deputy shares those principles. I do not believe his heart is in the "No" campaign because he is aware of the impact of the lack of investment in other countries and what that would mean for our country. Perhaps Deputy Adams will consider opening up a little more. I do not believe he believes in his own campaign.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams is right to smile at that.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams is undecided.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Shane Ross.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Is Deputy Ross going to speak in French?
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Deputy Ross needs to pick a side.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The European financial and political establishment has been rocked by the events of the past few days. The euro is again under attack this morning and is down below €1.30 to the dollar and the banks in Spain are in meltdown. However, it is on the political front that there has been a major game-changer, namely, what the establishment will regard as an inconvenient outbreak of democracy in Greece and simultaneously a vote in France which is epoch breaking. The Greek people have voted against the austerity agenda and the French people have voted against the Merkozy agenda, which needs to be recognised in Ireland. It was regrettably recognised by Chancellor Angela Merkel when in response to the election of President-elect Francois Hollande she stated as a fact that there would be no renegotiation of the fiscal treaty.
As an Irishman, I believe the Taoiseach and I should resent that the German Chancellor has taken ownership of that treaty and assumes to speak for the people of Europe immediately after democracy has broken out in France.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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As the treaty is undoubtedly a creation of the Merkel-Sarkozy agenda and as, thankfully, President Sarkozy is now confined to the political wilderness, will the Taoiseach acknowledge that what comes out of the summit on 23 May, which has just been called in recognition of Francois Hollande's election to the Presidency and will be held only eight days prior to the holding of the referendum on the treaty here, will have a material effect on the treaty and, therefore, on the referendum? Will he go to that summit willing to consider the Hollande agenda as against the Merkel agenda and will he be flexible about the date for the referendum on the treaty because of the important facts that will emerge from that summit?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has still not said which side he is on.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach is correct.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy will get splinters from sitting on the fence.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please.
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ross has not been told yet what side he is on.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The people of Deputy Ross's constituency-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----have the right to know what side he is on in this argument.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is Deputy Ross for his country or against its future prospects?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Deputy Ross is sitting too close to Deputy Boyd Barrett.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Bring back George Lee.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The decision of the French people is a matter for them just as the decision of the Greek people is a matter for them. Their process of democracy is now being followed through with members of the once minority parties now being asked to form a Government. That is their process and it must be followed through. It may well be that they can form a Government. If not, they have a specific process in place there.
Many economists, including Deputy Ross, offer views about growth rates and where our country is headed. It is interesting to note that the growth rates for the eurozone and European Union are very much behind the international forecast of 0.7% growth for Ireland for this year, which is significant in its own right. What we have been saying for some time is that there should be a balancing of the books here and a utilisation of the opportunity, through Government decision and international agreements, to grow our economy and provide many jobs in the future.
I spoke this morning to President-elect Hollande and congratulated him on his victory in the presidential elections in France. We had a good conversation. President-elect Hollande is sensitive to and cognisant of Ireland's concerns and is aware that our people will vote by way of referendum on 31 May on the text of the treaty as signed on 2 March 2012 and agreed by 25 countries. The President-elect fully understands and respects this. We had a good conversation about growth and reorientation of the European agenda towards a strong growth future, in addition to what has already been agreed.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Taoiseach talking about Fine Gael's five point plan?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He has his own plan.
11:00 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I look forward to meeting the President on 23 May when Ireland will, through me, contribute vigorously to this proposition. I reminded the President-elect that I had noted his comments on the ESM in regard to good budgetary discipline and the need for a growth agenda in Europe, which has been replicated in contributions from Ireland and a number of other countries during the past number of months.
I am pleased that President Von Rompuy made the decision to hold a European Summit on growth on 23 May. I see that as being one of a number of meetings at which leaders will discuss the propositions that could lead to growth. I also expect that proposals for decision will be put forward at the June meeting. In regard to Ireland, there are particular areas where a growth agenda would lead to Ireland leading in a number of areas, be it the digital market in terms of copyright, where we have a unique position gained to date.
As I stated, I had a good conversation with the President-elect and look forward to meeting him on 23 May.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I cannot say I disagree with anything the Taoiseach said because he said nothing, but I would like him to recognise that these summits, to which he referred, are important and that what comes out of them is important. They are relevant to the treaty he is urging us to vote on. He talks about growth and the growth agreement but if there is no change to the treaty and if there is a growth agreement or a compact for growth, which is dependent on the treaty or vice versa, he will be asking us to vote in a vacuum on 31 May.
The game has changed in Europe; let us recognise that.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question please.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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What François Hollande has said is that he will not sign the treaty as is - that is definite - and that he will renegotiate it or that he will not sign the treaty until a growth compact is agreed. I ask the Taoiseach once again to recognise the conditionality of this.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ross still has not said where he stands on this treaty.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----of his constituency demand to know where he stands on this matter. A momentous decision was made yesterday by a member of the Fianna Fáil Party and good luck to him. I hope Deputy Ross does not build up his decision on voting "Yes" or "No" into such a big thing.
What the French President-elect said was that he would not ratify the treaty until a strong growth agenda was produced in addition to what has already been agreed.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I said, we have already welcomed the statements by the French President-elect in respect of the development of that growth agenda and the reorientation of Europe towards a growth agenda. He fully respects and understands the Irish situation. He has no intention of interfering in any way with the decision to be made by the Irish people on 31 May in respect of the text of the treaty, as signed and agreed by the 25 countries.
The development of an additional growth agenda will take some time beyond May, through June. Obviously, part of that discussion will take place on 23 May. We strongly support the development of such a growth agenda. Why would we not? Is it not in the interests of our people and our country which exports so much of what it produces? It is in our economy's interest that other economies grow and are able to buy the produce, products and services we produce. That agenda of growth and development, in addition to what has already been agreed, will take some time to evolve because other leaders in other countries will have their views. I am very glad to see that the start of the process will take place on 23 May and I look forward to meeting President Hollande on that occasion. Deputy Ross might tell us before the week is out where he stands on this treaty.