Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Can the Leas-Cheann Comhairle confirm that this session will conclude at 5.45 p.m.?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I believe it is to last 75 minutes until 6.05 p.m.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Question 1: To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade the progress, if any, he has made in securing an agreement with the Vatican over the use of the Irish embassy to Italy in Rome as a dual host to an ambassador to the Holy See; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17429/12]

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Question 3: To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade the reason a decision was taken to close the embassy at the Vatican as opposed to all other embassies; if he will publish the cost of running this embassy relative to all other embassies; if he will reconsider his decision to close our embassy to the Vatican; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17438/12]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 3 together.

In November 2011, the Government announced its decision to close three of Ireland's overseas missions - our embassies in Tehran and to the Holy See, and our Mission in Timor Leste. This decision, taken with the greatest regret and reluctance, was driven by economic factors deriving from our need to cut public expenditure and focus the modest resources of our diplomatic service on economic recovery. The choice of missions for closure followed a comprehensive review of the diplomatic network, in which particular weight was given to the economic return from missions, and their role in rebuilding Ireland's reputation abroad. As regards the Holy See, the logic for closure was based on the fact that the embassy is not involved in consular services or trade promotion and that essential issues of church-State relations could be handled relatively well by a non-resident ambassador.

In a full year, the combined savings from the three closures is estimated at €1.175 million. Net savings in respect of the closure of the Embassy to the Holy See are estimated at €400,000 this year and €845,000 in 2013. These projections take into consideration the relocation of the offices of the Embassy to Italy and the residence of the ambassador to Italy to the State-owned Villa Spada. It is expected that the transfer will be completed during the course of the present year and that the full-year rental savings, amounting to €445,000, will be realised in 2013. A list of the budgets for all overseas missions in 2011 will be provided to the Deputies. This shows that the annual running costs of the majority of our missions is approximately €500,000 per annum per mission.

On the issue of co-location of missions to Italy and the Holy See, for what I understand are historical reasons the Holy See does not accept accreditation from a resident embassy that is also accredited to Italy. It will not accept the appointment of the same person as resident ambassador to both states. Nor will it agree to a country operating its embassy to the Holy See from the same address as its resident Embassy to Italy. This issue of operating our embassies to Italy and to the Holy See from the same premises has been raised with the Holy See and will be further explored.

As I have previously stated in this House, the decision to close the resident Embassy to the Holy See will not be reversed in the immediate term. However, as the economic situation improves and in the context of the regular review of our diplomatic network it may be possible to revisit the matter at some time in the future. If the Holy See were prepared to relax its current requirements so as to allow the State-owned Villa Spada to serve as a location for both our Embassy to Italy and our Embassy to the Holy See, that could be taken into account in any future considerations.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Tánaiste as ucht an freagra sin a thabhairt dúinn, cé nach bhfuil mé ró-shásta leis an méid atá le rá aige. Ba mhaith liom díriú isteach ar Cheist Uimh. 1. I ask the Tánaiste to elaborate on the level of engagement and who participated in the engagement with the Vatican on the issue of the possible use of Villa Spada for both embassies. An honourable attempt has been made by people who are quite passionate on this issue to encourage the Tánaiste to use Villa Spada as a dual-purpose embassy. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, whose heart I believe is in the right place on this matter, has been encouraging the Tánaiste in that direction also. What was the nature of the communication? Was it through the Tánaiste, the Department or the Secretary General and acting ambassador that these contacts took place?

The Tánaiste has rightly said much about the need to continue to build Ireland's reputation abroad. We have already had a protracted debate on these matters and that debate will not go away because this issue will continue to be raised here. Will he now accept that the decision he made effectively to torpedo the country's relations with the most important diplomatic listening post in the country, far from advancing the entire business of Ireland's diplomatic initiatives and our reputation abroad has in fact done damage?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I do not accept the allegation about torpedoing the diplomatic relations between Ireland and the Holy See. Ireland has good diplomatic relations with the Holy See and that will continue. I was very glad, for example, to be present when the President received the new papal nuncio to Ireland and accepted his credentials. Indeed I welcome him to Ireland and had the opportunity of doing so on that occasion.

There are two issues with the use of the same premises. First, there is the issue of the ambassador. The position of the Holy See - as it is entitled to maintain - is that it will not permit the accreditation of an ambassador to Italy to also be an ambassador to the Holy See. So it is not possible to have one in the same embassy and one in the same ambassador serve Italy and the Holy See. That is a long-standing position of the Holy See. The same applies to the use of the embassy premises. The long-standing position of the Holy See is that it does not permit that to be done. It is a matter for the Holy See. It is not a matter for Ireland and is not an issue of negotiation. It is a matter for the Holy See to decide what is acceptable to it in terms of arrangements for a resident ambassador.

On the appointment of a new ambassador, when the decision was made to close the resident Embassy to the Holy See, the Government appointed the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to be a non-resident ambassador to the Holy See. Arrangements are being made for him to have his credentials accepted. I understand there will be a ceremony in early May when he will hand in his credentials. In the meantime he has of course been visiting the Vatican and has had a number of meetings there already.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I apologise for not being in the House when the Tánaiste gave his reply. I am not satisfied with his answer. From the outset there was a degree of - I will not say mischievousness-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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When will the Tánaiste give us the facts and figures for the savings to be made in comparison with other embassies? Why was it picked upon? I believe it was picked upon because there was a weakened Catholic Church and the Tánaiste wanted to exercise his bias against the Catholic Church and close it for that reason. It is a shame. It is naked politicisation and is wrong.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I reject in the strongest terms the allegation by the Deputy that I have any bias against the Catholic Church. I hold no bias against the Catholic Church or any church and the Deputy should withdraw his allegation.

On a number of occasions I have set out the reasons for taking this decision. It has been necessary given the financial circumstances in which we find ourselves. Limited resources are available to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade for our diplomatic service. We have a small diplomatic service with 340 diplomatic staff to cover the entire world across 73 missions. In the present climate and with the resources available to us, it is not possible for us to spread ourselves as thinly. We are being pulled in a number of different directions to service varying needs, particularly the country's trade needs. For example, we have all heard of the need to extend our reach into the Brazil, Russia, India and China, BRIC, group of countries in particular. I am mindful that we have only two resident embassies in South America but we need more. In these circumstances we have had to cut our cloth to suit our measure. Regrettably, we have had to reduce the number of resident embassies abroad. We examined the matter and we decided to close three, one of which was in the Holy See. We can service our requirements to the Vatican and the Holy See by having a non-resident ambassador. In recognition of the importance many people in the country, including myself, attach to our diplomatic mission to the Holy See, we specifically decided to appoint the most senior diplomat in the diplomatic service, the Secretary General of the Department, as the non-resident ambassador to the Holy See.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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While I disagree strongly with the Minister, I do not attribute any mal-intent to him in these matters. I am unhappy with the Minister's response. I asked him about the nature of the contact he had with the Vatican to try to achieve a resolution. Given that the nominated ambassador, the Secretary General, has not yet presented his credentials will the Minister advise us if he has been able to do anything on our behalf in the intervening period? Given that strong proposals have been made about a dual use of Villa Spada, has the Department carried out an architectural study of the building to ascertain whether the suggestion is feasible from a practical or logistical point of view?

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I will not withdraw what I said. The Minister and the Government should have been more aware of the situation in respect of the church before the final choice of the three to cut as well as the various comments made by those in the Minister's party when in opposition on issues addressed in many other areas and on investigations. They should have kept away from this because they should have known it would be seen as having a bias against the Catholic Church. The Minister and the Minister for Education and Skills should try to tell the public what they have told me. I do not accept what the Minister says. I am convinced, as are others, that there is a bias against the Vatican and the Catholic Church.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I reject that. Deputy McGrath has given expression to his view in the House. I realise it has been stated by Deputy McGrath and others that there is somehow a bias against the Catholic Church on my part. I absolutely reject that. The Deputy can point to no occasion or find no statement in which I have expressed bias or hostility towards the Catholic Church.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister should talk to his members.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I simply do not accept that because it is absolutely false. It is a base political charge that Deputy McGrath and others have been touting. His interest here is not in the embassy to the Vatican or the Catholic Church.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is a fact.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Deputy McGrath's interest is to have a political cut at the Government. If he wishes to make a political charge or take a political pop at me, that is fine, but I will reply to it.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister makes plenty of them over there.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am saying in clear terms that there is no bias against the Catholic Church or any other church. We made a pragmatic decision about the number of embassies. I have made it clear that if financial circumstances improve and especially if the Holy See relaxes the position on arrangements acceptable to it for the appointment of ambassadors, then we will take these factors into account in any reconsideration.