Dáil debates

Thursday, 8 March 2012

Priority Questions

Local Authority Charges

4:00 pm

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Question 1: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government the date on which the specific regulations for septic tank inspections under Section 70 L of the Water Services (Amendment) Act will be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13411/12]

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Question 2: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government if he will consider providing public funding to meet the entire cost to householders of upgrading their septic tanks to meet the agreed new set of standards. [13410/12]

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

I have stated on a number of occasions that I will keep under review the need to provide financial support to households whose domestic waste water treatment systems are deemed, following inspection, to require substantial remediation or upgrading. The need for any such support will be only become clearer when inspections are being carried out. At that stage, more information regarding the nature and extent of problems with domestic waste water treatment systems and the type and cost of pragmatic remedial actions that may be required to address these and remove the risks posed to public health or the environment by failing systems will be available. Any scheme of support will need to have regard to budgetary constraints and to the financial position of the individual households concerned.

Draft performance standards, which include operation, maintenance and de-sludging requirements, have been prepared by my Department in consultation with the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, and were published on 1 March. The consultation document has been drafted in an easy-to-understand format so that it is clear to everyone what the standards involve. If it had been issued as a draft statutory instrument, the legal format and language may have proved confusing for some people. That should not happen now.

The draft standards elaborate on the basic requirements for all domestic waste water treatment systems set out in the Water Services (Amendment) Act 2012 that the system does not cause a risk to public health or the environment. The consultation document provides more detail regarding the responsibilities of owners of domestic waste water treatment systems. These include requirements for the removal of sludge and for ensuring the system is in working order and functioning properly.

The public consultation process will be open until 30 March and I encourage all interested parties to consider the consultation document and, if they wish, to make submissions to my Department on the draft performance standards before the closing date. The submissions will be reviewed by my Department prior to finalising the content of the regulations, which will be made under section 70L of the Act. The regulations will give legal effect to the standards. As soon as the regulations are made, the relevant statutory instrument will be laid before each House of the Oireachtas for approval in accordance with section 18 of the Water Services Act 2007.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What the Minister published reveals little detail on the impact of the regulations on home owners in rural Ireland. Given that the regulatory impact mentions a charge of €17,000 - this is not scaremongering as the Department mentioned this in its figures - does the Minister envisage a lenient inspection plan or should we expect a more comprehensive plan that will drive up costs and affect the people who need to upgrade tanks?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I do not know what I have to do in order to make it easy for people to understand that this is a very well laid out and comprehensible document setting out the reasons we must have a licensing and monitoring inspection system in order to comply with a European Court of Justice judgment. The full details are laid out on how inspections will be carried out and when people can register has already been indicated as part of the press release for the Act. I cannot make it any simpler and if there is a problem with on-site waste water treatment systems, it will be tackled without any difficulty. I do not envisage an enormous number of people failing to comply with the inspection process arising from the regulations which I successfully negotiated, through the EPA, with the European Commission.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Fáilte ar ais, a Aire.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I was only away for a day and the Deputy missed me.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know, I was only winding up the Minister. We welcome the publication of the draft standards, and although they are a bit vague, the language is clear. We will be making a submission on them. Some €2.7 billion was spent between 2000 and 2007 in upgrading urban waste water treatment plants, a process funded by taxpayers in urban and rural areas. Rural householders are now expected to foot the total bill to meet waste water standards. In many cases this will be unworkable, as in 99% of cases these are private houses constructed with loans or mortgages, and many owners may be in negative equity or arrears because of a collapse in income arising from unemployment or the past five austerity budgets.

There is a requirement on the Minister to ensure that we put in place is workable and can be carried out. We must ensure that people will comply and protect ground-water. We do not want to see people being dragged through the courts because they cannot pay for this.

We can learn from last night's debate on turf cutting. That was not a climb-down by the Government but rather the Government taking a great initiative to put a good plan in place. If we approach this issue similarly, engage and listen to people in order to find compromise, and if we apply the draft standards on a risk-based approach, the number of septic tanks requiring expensive repair would be modest. Will the Minister put in place the necessary financial measures to enable people in this process?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Sinn Féin is arguing that we should sign a blank cheque without knowing the extent of the problem.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what I said.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is. I have explained very clearly to the Deputy that when I know the extent of the problem arising from inspections, I can deal with it. Neither the Deputy nor anybody else knows what the issues will be in 2013 arising from inspections. I have dealt with all the issues raised by the Deputy's party through misinformation and otherwise over the past nine months.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That was not me.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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To be fair, the Deputy was not party to it, although some of his party members were. Deputy Martin Ferris and others could educate him about public meetings and misinformation in the House. Those Deputies have been seeking to misinform and frighten people on an issue that should not cause a problem for many.

The Deputy mentioned some people with high mortgages but they would have already complied with the 2009 regulations and the 2007 Act. Recently built houses should have no difficulty in complying with the standards set out in the draft regulations and the cases where there may be problems would go back years and would not have engaged in a proper maintenance and de-sludge programme. Mentioning the category referred to by the Deputy is again misinforming people as he is arguing that they will have a problem with these standards. There will be few problems arising from these standards and I will consider the financial position of people if there are problems. I cannot and will not do so until I know the level of the problem arising from inspections in 2013.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister's comments with regard to identifying problems and I hope the Minister can assure us there will be some grant assistance for people who must carry out major or minor improvements on their septic tanks. Will these inspections satisfy the requirements of the European Court of Justice and the European Commission?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Every step of the way we have been in contact with the European Commission and my predecessor was also in contact with it. The Fianna Fáil-Green Party Government submitted proposals on the basis that every septic tank would have to be inspected, with an annual inspection charge and compliance with the 2009 EPA code of practice. I immediately engaged with the Commission to indicate this was unacceptable in dealing with the European Court of Justice judgment and I succeeded, where my predecessors failed, and with the EPA we were able to convince the Commission that we had a system, proposals and standards. The Commission was satisfied they would comply with the judgment, which is what we are doing.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Will there be a grant?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I have already said I will examine the financial position after inspections commence. The days of the blank cheque are over, as the Deputy knows.

Photo of Robert DowdsRobert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Even in east Galway.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I asked a question concerning what happens if an environmental group, or a body which calls itself an environmental group, takes a case to Europe. I believe he answered that in saying he has this squared with Europe. The one thing I ask the Minister to do is to give people some time to get septic tanks remedied where they are found to be defective. I know it will have to be risk-based; if a septic tank is polluting the public water supply time cannot be lost and I understand this. I would not ask any local authority to back-pedal on this and if it must be done quickly then it must be done quickly. The Bill states it must be done by a date. The Minister probably left it like this to give people latitude. Guidelines will be issued from the Department to local authority inspectors and they should state that a reasonable approach should be taken.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I agree with Deputy Stanley. He correctly pointed out I have given people as much flexibility as I possibly can to comply with the court judgment that there is no damage to public health or the environment. Irresponsible people have gone around the country and effectively advocated that watercourses should be polluted and people's households, businesses and neighbours should suffer from public health or environmental issues. This was totally irresponsible and has caused much fear and misinformation. I am glad the standards will be able to put away all these fears. They are based on what I said months ago in the many contributions I was asked to make on these issues.

I know many Deputies were wondering how I could negotiate with the European Commission a set of standards that would meet the European Court of Justice judgment without imposing any major financial problems for people deemed in their own minds to be in breach of the EPA code of practice of 2009. We have a pragmatic and practical solution to a very difficult issue which I inherited.