Dáil debates

Thursday, 23 February 2012

Priority Questions

Disadvantaged Status

4:00 pm

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Question 1: To ask the Minister for Education and Skills the reason he refused to release information under a recent freedom of information request relating to advice received by him on his decision to cut 428 DEIS posts in Budget 2012; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10383/12]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Question 3: To ask the Minister for Education and Skills in view of commitments in the EU 2020 National Reform Programme in terms of targeted pupil teacher ratios, if he will be reversing his decision to make changes to the staffing schedule for DEIS schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10385/12]

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 3 together.

DEIS is one of the key measures to address the national target under the EU 2020 National Reform Programme. Among the key issues and needs addressed by DEIS are targeted reductions in pupil-teacher ratios. The reform of the teacher allocations process under budget 2012 includes no change to the mainstream staffing schedule for primary schools of a general average of 28 pupils to one teacher, including DEIS band 2 schools. A dedicated staffing schedule for DEIS band 1 schools will preserve the favourable ratios of 20:1 and 24:1 for these schools, while additional support is being provided for DEIS post-primary schools through an improved staffing schedule of 18.25:1.

The report on the net effect, in terms of posts, of budget measures on DEIS band 1 and band 2 urban primary schools that still had additional posts allocated under disadvantage schemes pre-dating DEIS was published earlier this week.

On foot of the analysis in the report, the Government has now agreed to my proposal to retain a total of 235 posts, on a concessionary basis, in DEIS band 1 and DEIS band 2 schools. As already announced, the withdrawal of 192 posts from primary schools outside DEIS bands 1 and 2 and from DEIS second level schools will proceed.

On the reallocation of posts under the general allocation model, GAM, I can now confirm that DEIS band 1 schools will be given an additional allocation of 0.2 of a post where the school has less than 200 pupils and 0.4 of a post where the school has 200 or more pupils. We will continue to ensure that DEIS schools in the most disadvantaged areas are prioritised for targeted support, including preferential pupil-teacher ratios over and above mainstream schools.

My Department replied to a recent freedom of information request on the withdrawal of certain posts under pre-DEIS schemes. This request was refused under sections 19 and 20 of the Freedom of Information Act as the records in question were the subject of ongoing consideration at ministerial and official level at the time of the request. This decision may be appealed under section 14(7) of the Act.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his reply. My party welcomes the partial reversal of the decision that was made in the budget to eliminate 428 DEIS posts. Some 193 will still be lost.

I am very disappointed that he stands over the decision to refuse to accede to our request under freedom of information. This was part of the budgetary process and documentation between the various Departments and within Departments has been released post budget, and Deputy Quinn's Department has released some information to my party about other matters.

The Minister stated here in this House and elsewhere that he made a mistake in regard to the DEIS decision and he stated clearly that he got it wrong. He made the strong point that when the full impact of the Government's decision was brought to his attention, he realised he had not acted on the full information and that the-----

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question, please.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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-----full information been not been analysed. Surely we are entitled to see what information was available to the Minister and what information he had the opportunity to read before making that decision.

The Minister has been consistent over the years, whether in government or in opposition, in calling for a widening and a better use of the Freedom of Information Acts for the public administration. I am most disappointed that he and his Department refused to release this information to us.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Smith for his question. I am quite happy to ensure the appeal proceeds. I was not consulted about the decision of the Department to deny him the information. It was an automatic decision because when the request came in, we were still discussing the changes. In fact, the changes were discussed right up until just before the Cabinet meeting. I am not sure when Deputy Smith's application under the Freedom of Information Acts was submitted, but I neither asked about nor intervened in it. All I can suggest is that he lodge his appeal in the normal way.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Everybody is delighted there has been some reversal of the cuts to DEIS schools. It seems it is a victory for people power. I wonder whether the Minister would agree that it is as a result of people protesting, and proving the efficacy of protesting, that there has been a reversal of these cuts which were targeted at the most vulnerable and disadvantaged schools.

While that is a victory and an improvement, is it really acceptable that the cost will still be borne by the education system and school children's quality of education in general, particularly given that the schools that would suffer disproportionately from the reduction in the capitation grant funding will be precisely the disadvantaged schools, and they will be hit in another way?

Of course, if one lives in a better-off area, if there are more well-off families who can afford bigger voluntary contributions, which they should not have to make in the first place as we should have a properly funded education system, at least there may be a little bit more of a buffer to make up the reductions in the grants.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Is it the reality that the Government will still hit the most disadvantaged students and schools in another way and this is only an indication of the need not to cut at education and at the children-----

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am obliged to call on the Minister to reply.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----and the protest should lead the Government to think again on education cuts in general?

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I would love to be in the position in which the Deputy thinks we all live, and in a world that does not exist as far as this country is concerned. The fact is 17% of the entire current account budget of this Government, and of previous Governments, goes on education. With the exception of social welfare, it is probably the biggest single expenditure item. Some 80% of that budget goes to salaries and related employment costs. Therefore, any adjustment that I must make comes within the 20% balance. Indirectly, by removing teaching posts, I can theoretically reduce the costs but, in fact, anybody who is holding down a teaching post and is permanent does not lose his or her job, and will be redeployed elsewhere within the system, and the savings are quite limited.

I regret that I must do what I must do. I do not like it. What I was doing, as Deputy Boyd Barrett might well be aware, was looking at DEIS band 1 and band 2 primary schools and those posts which were additional to the DEIS allocation, which had preceded the establishment of DEIS and which were known as legacy posts. On the basis of the full impact, and following the discussions with politicians and Deputies on the Government side, and listening to what people were saying, I have decided to make this change.

However, I stated on the day that I accepted I would have to review the position that any change that would take place would have to be financed from within the primary education budget within the Department, and that is what I have done.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I will take brief questions from Deputies Smith and Boyd Barrett.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Public representatives on all sides were able to point to the success of DEIS and the research and evidence was there to demonstrate the importance of continuing DEIS. I have still a worry when I am aware that 16 schools in rural areas are losing posts under the review that has taking place.

It also concerns me that the measurement of poverty in a rural context may not be as accurate as it is for urban areas. Persons in a rural area do not have access to a library and other facilities. At times in the more crowded urban area the poverty is more apparent. I have a concern that so many small rural schools are losing those particular posts.

Do I take it from the Minister that his Department will accede to my request to release the information available, and it would appear that very little research was done in advance of the budgetary decision?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Needless to say, I do not accept the necessity for education cuts. It is simply extraordinary that we will pay €3.1 billion out at the end of this month for an Anglo Irish Bank promissory note while the Government thinks it is okay to cut education.

I do not see, particularly in education, how the Government - I take the point that the Minister is put within certain limits - does not recognise that this is cutting off its nose to spite its face. If there is one area that should be critical, both in terms of its vulnerability because it is our children and its strategic importance in terms of our future capacity to develop economically and socially, it is education. If one cuts, as the Government is doing, at the quality of education for all the students, and there simply cannot be any doubt that such will be the result of these education cuts, then the effect at every single level for the future of our society will be negative.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Given many controversial things were said in and around the budget decision, I want to clarify the position. There was no reduction in DEIS band 1 and band 2 primary schools in the normal course of events. What was identified was that some DEIS schools had retained additional posts which had been allocated to them before DEIS was introduced in 2004, either under Breaking the Cycle or Giving Children An Even Break. It was those additional posts that were identified and, on balance and having looked at the likely impact, I reflected on this and decided to leave them there because of the scale of the deprivation in some of those schools. As a consequence of the change I have made, now two schools can be classified as DEIS band 1 with similar profiles in the community but one school will have more resources than the other because it happened to be allocated those resources in the past.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Question 2: To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if there is a mechanism in place to enable schools that have experienced demographic changes combined with unemployment and increased socio economic deprivation levels within the school's catchment area to be designated a new DEIS school; if he will confirm the date when the review into DEIS schools is to be completed and published; if DEIS Band 2 schools are included in the review; and if schools experiencing greater challenges will be included in the process. [10518/12]

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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While a key priority for me is to continue to prioritise and target resources at schools with the most concentrated levels of educational disadvantage, the current economic climate and the challenge to meet significant targets on reducing public expenditure limits opportunities and means there is no capacity to provide for additionality to the DEIS programme, including the selection of further schools.

The report on the net effect, in terms of posts, of budget measures on DEIS band 1 and band 2 urban primary schools that still had additional posts allocated under disadvantage schemes predating DEIS was published earlier this week. On foot of the analysis in this report, the Government has now agreed to my proposal to retain a total of 235 posts, on a concessionary basis, in DEIS band 1 and band 2 schools.

In regard to the reallocation of posts under the general allocation model, I can now confirm that DEIS band 1 schools will be given an additional allocation of 0.2 of a post where the school has less than 200 pupils and 0.4 of a post where the school has 200 or more pupils. My Department's social inclusion unit will now write to these and all DEIS band 1 schools separately in regard to their staffing allocations for the 2012-2013 school year.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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The question may seem a little historical as I did not know when the report was to be published. We all know the reasons DEIS was introduced, namely, to try to target and break down some of the barriers for children through the introduction of certain measures. The point of my question, which follows on from the Minister's point on additional resources, is that I am aware of schools which, if given the opportunity today, would fit the criteria for DEIS. While they are disadvantaged schools, the system itself is doubly disadvantaging those schools and the children within them. The Minister will not want another review - God forbid - but is there any mechanism to look into this issue? I accept what he says in regard to resources but we are doubly disadvantaging these children, which is wrong.

DEIS was never about creating barriers or building walls, it was about pulling down walls and doing away with barriers. The Minister says some schools will have more resources than others. However, some schools are run alongside DEIS schools and fit all the criteria, including schools in my area, for example, in Inchicore and at St. Mary's in Tallaght, which has children from 26 countries as well as Traveller children, all affected by unemployment, social and economic change and so on. The system needs to adapt. What I ask is not unreasonable and the Minister should consider it.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The process of identifying schools for participation in DEIS in 2005 was managed by the Educational Research Centre, ERC, on behalf of the Department and supported by quality assurance work co-ordinated through the Department's regional offices and the inspectorate. The ERC's overall approach was guided by the definition of educational disadvantage as set out in the Education Act 1998, which states: "the impediments to education arising from social or economic disadvantage which prevent students from deriving appropriate benefit from education in schools." The Deputy is asking me, in effect, to look again at the whole categorisation of DEIS. I am prepared to give that consideration.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome that. Things have moved on in regard to the economic situation of the country. While this might frighten the life out of some schools, it needs to be considered.

With regard to the review of DEIS, particularly in regard to Breaking the Cycle, the Minister originally talked in terms of a pupil-teacher ratio of 15:1 and then 18:1, whereas the Department's website refers to 20:1. While I may have taken it up wrong, has the ratio increased from 18:1 to 20:1? There is a great deal of confusion about this.

Some strange issues have come out of the review and there is a question of fairness. People talk in terms of a drop in the number on school rolls. This might be on the basis that the school is full to capacity. I know of some schools in that situation where the Department will not provide funding for an extension so they are being penalised because they cannot expand or take in more children. I am not sure if progress can be made by simply moving the pieces around the board.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I do not have an answer to the Deputy's specific question about the various pupil-teacher ratios on the website. I will have that clarified and will communicate directly with him.

The reality is that not all disadvantaged pupils are in DEIS schools and the majority are in non-DEIS schools. It has been expressed to me that in some cases parents would prefer not to have their child in a DEIS school, for a variety of reasons. I will clarify the point in regard to the website for the Deputy.