Dáil debates

Tuesday, 14 February 2012

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

Constitutional Amendments

3:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the political representatives from the Northern Assembly to whom he has written in relation to the promised constitutional review; if they will be given a formal role in the process; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3294/12]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the way he plans to involve a representative range of political and community views from the North of Ireland in the upcoming constitutional review; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3295/12]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the date on which he plans to meet with other party leaders in relation to the forthcoming constitutional convention. [3305/12]

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach when the first meeting of the constitutional convention will be convened. [3793/12]

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach when he intends to meet with the opposition to discuss the constitutional convention. [3806/12]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach his plans to meet opposition leaders in relation to the constitutional convention. [5150/12]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach his plans in relation to the convening of the constitutional convention. [5151/12]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 8: To ask the Taoiseach if he intends to consult other parties or outside organisations in advance of presenting a formal proposal for the constitutional convention. [6192/12]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 9: To ask the Taoiseach the intended timetable for the establishment and work of the constitutional convention. [6193/12]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 9, inclusive, together.

The programme for Government contains a commitment to establish a constitutional convention and indicates areas for it to examine. Work is proceeding on proposals to set up the convention and these will address, inter alia, the structure, operation and membership of the convention, including possible representation from Northern Ireland.

I previously signalled my intention to invite Opposition leaders to meet me to discuss the Government's proposals. I intend to hold this meeting in the next few weeks. It is my intention that the convention will be set up as soon as possible.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have a number of questions on the constitutional convention. Nine months ago the Taoiseach first promised the House that he would soon consult the Opposition on the terms of reference and composition of the convention. On 3 May 2011 he told me he was sick of the days where the Oireachtas was the last to know about things. On the same day he promised to consider the inclusion of Northern representatives. Will there be consultation on the terms of reference and the composition of the convention or will that consultation happen after all the decisions have been taken? Given all that has been said over the past nine months why has not the slightest effort been made to consult with the leaders of the Opposition parties or with Parliament? I want the Taoiseach to give an assurance that no effort will be made to prevent the convention from considering more radical reforms such as the makeup of Cabinet and Government control of the agenda of the Oireachtas itself, which is a fundamental issue that needs to be radically examined because the situation is getting worse in many respects.

How many referenda does the Taoiseach envisage emanating from the constitutional convention? Is it still his intention to hold the referendum on the abolition of the Seanad outside the remit of the convention? The Taoiseach has spoken about the limited opportunities per year to put referenda to the people. How does he reconcile that reality with the work of the convention and the reforms it might propose to implement?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I regret that I have been unable to bring this to a conclusion before now but I was otherwise occupied by many other matters. Work is proceeding on the referendum on the abolition of the Seanad but it is outside the remit of the constitutional convention. It is part of the programme for Government and is being dealt with separately as is the issue of the referendum on child protection, which the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is advancing with the Attorney General. I want to get the structure right here so that when it begins its work it will be able to do so properly. At the first opportunity I get in coming weeks I will brief Deputies Martin and Adams on the composition; the numbers; the breakdown between public representation and citizens; the impact and the question of representation from Northern Ireland; citizens to be included and citizens to be excluded; the range of and how it should go about its work; the numbers to serve on it; and how it is to be serviced from the public service so it can do its job properly.

The Deputy will be aware that the programme for Government sets out a number of areas we would expect the convention to address. My view is that it should start work on one or two of those and then examine the weaknesses or inefficiencies in the system so that consideration could be given to how it might be improved if that is necessary. I would be prepared to discuss the extension of its remit with Opposition leaders when that arises. We also need to define the setting up of the constitutional convention by resolution of the House here and by resolution of the Seanad. I am anxious to have it established, but I also want to discuss with Deputies Martin and Adams what is in my mind in the context of having a structure that will work effectively. We should then give it time periods to deal with each of the issues set out in the programme for Government. I hope we can have that in the next two weeks.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has been nine months since the commitment was made to consult the leaders of the Opposition and there has been no consultation whatsoever. Is it the Taoiseach's intention to just brief Members about what has been decided or will there be a genuine offer to the leaders of the Opposition parties to have some input into the terms of reference and the matters that would come under consideration by the convention? Will there be genuine consultation at that level?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When I discuss this with Deputies Martin and Adams I cannot give a guarantee that I will take on board the issues they might raise or the proposals they might make. However, I will proceed in the next two weeks and it will be a genuine consultation. I will be happy to listen to what they have to say on behalf of their parties.

4:00 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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While I know the Taoiseach has been very busy, I find this matter frustrating. We have spoken about it many times in this Chamber but it has never got past where we are now. To compensate for the Taoiseach's unavailability, I wrote to him and outlined some ideas. I again welcome the commitment to his having a meeting with us on the matter. I also welcome the Taoiseach's previously stated commitment that the convention will consider extending the franchise for presidential elections north of the Border.

As the Good Friday Agreement enshrines in the Constitution the right of the people in the North to Irish citizenship, the constitutional convention must consider how they can fully exercise their citizenship. We have also often discussed the diaspora, which I value as does the Taoiseach. Citizens across the diaspora must also have some part in this constitutional convention. The Taoiseach must have some plans, ideas or notions he can share with the Dáil. For example, will the proposals of such a convention be put to the people in a referendum or will they go back to the Government? I have advocated consultations across the State and across the diaspora, which can be done by using our diplomatic services. Will voluntary social community organisations be able to have a part?

The programme for Government defines the remit as being to consider comprehensive constitutional reform.

Given what has happened across the island since the 1937 Constitution was written, will the Government consider allowing the convention to recommend an entirely new constitution for the 21st century? This could be a new re-imagining of Ireland, including a look at Ireland throughout all 32 counties and how we can move to reflect the wishes for Irish unity, while being sensitive to Unionist concerns, and to protect and have a human rights based protection of citizens' rights. If a republic is nothing else, it is about the rights of citizens.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I said to Deputy Martin, I am happy to sit down and discuss the proposals I have with the leaders of the respective parties and to discuss what they have to offer, what they have to brief Government on and what they have to say. The remit in the programme for Government is clear about what the constitutional convention will be called on to examine. Let us suppose the constitutional convention were to examine a reduction in the period of the presidency from seven to five years and an associated recommendation were to come before Government and the Government decided that it was worthy of doing. One cannot change the Constitution without a referendum. In the event that proposals from the constitutional convention were acceptable to Government having been deliberated on by it and so on, a referendum could be required in a range of areas. I cannot say what the constitutional convention might decide in any of these cases. We must consider carefully how the structure of this will work.

Deputies will be aware of the work of the National Forum on Europe which has taken hearings throughout the country. In some cases the meetings were well-attended and packed and in other cases the meetings were rather small. It depends on how one services that structure. One must appoint a chairperson for the operation and provide it with adequate resources to do its job. I do not foresee it drafting an entirely new constitution in this context. We have had recommendations in the Oireachtas for this at various times during the past 30 years. There is a specific requirement in the programme for Government and we will see this materialises and get under way. I hope to brief Deputy Adams and Deputy Martin in the next two weeks.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The length of time a President serves may be important but it is not the most important thing facing citizens at present. One of the positive things people are doing at this time of economic crisis is questioning what type of country we live in, the type of state we have and what our society is about. Increasing numbers of people are looking at re-imagining Ireland, building a real republic and building a society that enshrines citizens' rights. Surely the constitutional convention should examine that. The Government should consider an entirely new constitution. In the Taoiseach's response to my earlier question he did not elaborate on the role the diaspora could play in this. The global citizens of most other states, including the USA, can vote in presidential elections. The French can do so as well. Latvians did it in the North during our presidential elections. I call on the Taoiseach to elaborate on some of these points.

The fact that citizens have few rights is pressing down on people at present. When one weighs it up, there is a two-tier republic: there is a two-tier society with elites and people at the bottom of the ladder. We do not have certain social guarantees. A republic should look after and cherish all the children of the nation equally, especially those who suffer from disadvantage, mental or physical disability, those who live in remote areas or who do not have the same resources as others. I would prefer to think we have the ability not only to examine and invite in citizens to have these discussions but to start to build a new Ireland, a new republic and, to use the Taoiseach's phrase, to build a country that everyone can be proud of by 2016.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I agree that the reduction of the period of presidential service is not the most important issue. I was simply responding to Deputy Adams's question about whether referendums will result from this and I gave the example that if the constitutional convention were to make such a recommendation and it was to be accepted it would require a change in the Constitution and that could take place only by referendum.

I intend to announce the Succeed in Ireland campaign before St. Patrick's Day. One issue taken on board by the Government, and by the Tánaiste in particular, is the need to connect to the Irish diaspora. The technological revolution gives us that opportunity.

I hope the efforts we are making with business people and chief executives who go abroad to meet their peers throughout the world and who discuss Ireland and the international recognition given to us and our diaspora by eminent people throughout the globe speak to the changed perception of this country held by people from abroad. When I have the opportunity to meet people involved in business and positions of influence abroad, I notice that their view of Ireland and the Irish people is of a higher order than some of the stuff I hear at home. I would prefer Deputy Adams to say that we live in one of the best countries in the world. We have a problem at the moment and we must clean up an unmerciful mess. We are focused on doing so and on building the type of country I have spoken of. For some time my mantra has been to make us the best country in the world in which to do business and to prove it by 2016. It has also been to change the structures of governance and governmental competence and to apply an effective spend to taxpayers' money so Ireland can be the best place in which to raise a family and to grow old with a sense of dignity and respect. I know the problems we have, as does Deputy Adams and everyone else. However, Sinn Féin's economic policies cause fear and shock in people. We have a country and a Republic. It is not as fine as it should be in some respect but we will rectify that. What Deputy Adams speaks of is an imagined land that many people here wish never to see materialise.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As part of Question No. 9 I asked the Taoiseach about the intended timetable for the establishment and the work of the constitutional convention, whether one exists and, if so, whether it will be put before the House. As the party that brought in the 1937 Constitution, a republican constitution emulated by others throughout the globe, the challenge facing us is to enhance it. It is an organic constitution that grows, evolves and develops. The Supreme Court interprets it and creates new rights emanating from the basic document. The challenge facing us is to enhance the Constitution for the people. I put it to the Taoiseach that the Government has not been good at consulting the Opposition on such fundamental issues.

Since the bail referendum in 1996, there has been a tradition of Governments seeking the maximum amount of cross-party agreement possible across the board on fundamental issues before publishing proposals. A fundamental look at the Constitution is one such issue. There should have been a greater degree of bilateral consultation before now, like what happened in the case of the European referendums. Pro-European Union parties were always consulted. Governments tried everything to be non-partisan but that is not happening at the moment. I put it to the Taoiseach with the greatest of respect that Ministers must work far more constructively with Opposition parties.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a question, please?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is an issue in terms of how many referendums the Government can get through. The timetable of the convention is important because one year of the lifetime of this Oireachtas has gone. The Oireachtas needs reform. If anything, things are going backwards in terms of parliamentary democracy. The Seanad is a separate question but the Taoiseach has stated that it only makes sense if it is accompanied by serious reform of the Dáil as well. Has the Taoiseach considered allowing the constitutional convention the capacity to recommend the retention of a second chamber if that is its view or to tease out properly the fundamental issue of whether we should have a one-chamber or two-chamber democracy?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is a question coming up on that later.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, but my question relates to the work of the constitutional convention. Will it be denied the opportunity to tease out that issue and to put its views?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I have not. That is a clear and separate part of the programme for Government and there is no going back on it. The constitutional convention is a specific part of the programme for Government, as is the list of issues the Government would like it to consider.

I will sit down with both Deputy Martin and Deputy Adams before the Government finalises its views on this to hear their proposals and ideas and we will tease out the matter as best we can. I agree it is important that the people sent here by the electorate have the opportunity to discuss this issue. Our Constitution has been organic. The Republic declared by John A. Costello, from across the globe as Deputy Martin said, has had quite a number of changes brought to it in the past 30 years. The range of issues to be discussed by the constitutional convention has been set out in the programme for Government. What I am interested in is getting a structure that will work and be effective. We will decide how it will be allowed and funded to do its business, how it will complete its work and the form in which that work will be presented, whether by majority or minority reports. We will move on with it in that manner. I will take on board the Deputies' views and move on from there. Having had a significant number of issues to deal with up to now, I suppose I am somewhat at fault for not having pushed this harder. However, now I have a clear horizon and I expect to brief both Deputies in the next two weeks.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 10: To ask the Taoiseach his plans for the holding of referendums this year. [3723/12]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Question 11: To ask the Taoiseach the referendums that he proposes to hold this year; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6591/12]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 12: To ask the Taoiseach the progress made regarding the proposed referendum to abolish Seanad Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8006/12]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 to 12, inclusive, together.

Work is proceeding on the preparation of proposals for a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad. The proposal to abolish the Seanad was signalled by the Government parties prior to the general election and the Dáil and Seanad will have an opportunity to debate the necessary legislation fully, when it is published.

Proposals for a referendum on child protection, as promised in the programme for Government, are being progressed by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

Deputies will be aware of the position regarding the treaty on stability, co-ordination and governance in the economic and monetary union. Now that we have a final text, the views of the Attorney General have been sought and the Cabinet will take whatever decisions are necessary on foot of her advice. If a referendum is required, one will be held.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I wished to ask a number of questions on the constitutional convention, but I presume I cannot go back to that now.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have moved on a bit, but I have no doubt the Deputy will always come back to it.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The big problem at the moment is that I meet citizens every day who do not have rights. I met a woman called Billie McDonnell who was the victim of symphysiotomy 60 years ago. She has no rights whatsoever and is still fighting 60 years later to try to have her issues dealt with. In a real republic, those rights, the rights of children and citizens would be protected, but they are not.

On the question of the Seanad, it is mentioned in 16 Articles of the Constitution and I believe the constitutional convention would be the appropriate place to have that discussion.

With regard to the treaty and an upcoming referendum, has the Taoiseach received clear guidance from the Attorney General as to whether a referendum is required for the austerity treaty? In terms of the core democratic issue involved, does he consider the treaty should be part of a referendum? If it is, will the referendum be held in tandem with others and is there a timescale for it?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have been very clear about this. The process of agreeing a final text intensified from the Christmas period until the last meeting of the Council of Europea leaders at which the text was agreed and signed off on by 25 of the 27 countries. The day after that meeting, the Tánaiste wrote formally on behalf of the Government to the Attorney General seeking her legal and formal advice on whether the text is compatible with our Constitution. There is no timescale and no pressure on the Attorney General to conclude her deliberations. When she has concluded her deliberations, she will return to Government and it will take whatever steps are necessary following that advice. That has been the procedure in this country for a long period. As the Deputy knows, one only changes the Constitution if it must be changed.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On the issue of the children's referendum, the Taoiseach and the Minister may have noted that the report of the Children's Rights Alliance on the Government's performance in child related areas condemned the Government's failure to address child poverty and the impact the 2012 budget is having on young people and children. It also criticised the treatment of children detained in St. Patrick's Institution. These criticisms highlight the need for the Government to bring forward the children's rights referendum Bill as soon as possible.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In politics, no more than in life, one will always have those who will disagree and they have the legitimate right to criticise. Others will agree and say they think something is a good idea. It is important to recognise that this is the first Government that has set up a senior Department and Ministry for children. That is a statement of our priorities in its own right. It took some time to get this right and to extract from the different Departments the essential elements with which the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs must deal. It is a fledgling Department in that regard. It is also important to note that there has been no adoption legislation in this country. The Minister is anxious to progress that in the first instance and, as the Deputy is aware, it is complex legislation.

The Minister is working with a range of groups on child protection. With regard to this issue, I will not rush in here and say we have it all ready and everything is as it should be. This issue is so sensitive and serious that we must get it right. This issue and the issue of the Seanad raised by Deputy Martin are two clear commitments in the programme for Government. I have no intention of rushing into the House with a Bill that is not complete and as comprehensive as we would like it to be on either. Therefore, I cannot give the Deputy a timescale. However, I will inform the House properly when the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, the Attorney General and all involved have completed their work on it.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Based on answers to previous questions and on the Government's general commitment to a new republic, constitutional conventions and more open and accountable politics, one would imagine this means a political system that is more responsive to the popular will on key issues confronting the Government. Given the Taoiseach has committed the Government to supporting a treaty, which is not an EU treaty but an intergovernmental treaty, which will lock this country into crippling austerity for at least ten years and which will give this intergovernmental body the right to intrude on our budgetary process and to impose conditions on the ability of governments to frame budgets which will in the words of the treaty be "permanent and binding", thereby locking governments into them, it is difficult for me to understand how that is not worthy of a referendum. It is probably the most far-reaching treaty with the most profound impact on the citizens of the country and the Government's ability to exercise economic sovereignty in the State, so how can the Government think-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----that does not require a referendum? It is beyond me. With all the love circulating on St. Valentine's day, does this extend to the majority of people in this country, who have indicated they want a referendum on this treaty, and will the commitment to new and open democratic politics lead the Taoiseach to conclude that we should have a referendum as a matter of priority? If the Government or the Attorney General decides we need a referendum, will the Taoiseach indicate when that referendum might take place?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy comes in with the same old blather every week. It is the same old story.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I listen to the Taoiseach blather on every week. What is the difference?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That old record is getting a bit stale. I will repeat for the Deputy the process in this country, much of which he does not like. The Attorney General of the day would be asked for formal legal advice and the Government has followed that path absolutely correctly.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am for Connolly's Republic.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will await the deliberations and formal advice from the Attorney General. As I repeated before, this country, unfortunately, is in a programme which will continue for two further years. There is nothing in the fiscal compact that affects the figures and structures set out as part of our programme. As Deputy Boyd Barrett is aware, we have had four serious analyses by the troika and have measured up in those, although it has been difficult for our people.

When the Deputy speaks about condemning the country to ten years of austerity, the fiscal compact requires countries to reduce their debt to GDP ratio to 60% over the next 20 years, and the formula is to be worked out in respect of each individual country. I remind Deputy Boyd Barrett that far from relying on austerity to do that job, we will rely on export growth potential, which is central to yesterday's jobs action plan. Between 1991 and 2000, our debt increased from €36 billion to €40 billion but our debt to GDP ratio in the same period declined from 95% to 35%; that was not because of austerity but because of strong growth.

The Government has a responsibility to deal with the public finance problem but the opportunity to deal with the other issues will rely mainly on growth. That is why we have put jobs and growth central to the agenda for the European Heads of Government meetings from now on. That will start in the middle of April with the task force dealing with youth unemployment for countries where the rate of unemployment of young people is above the European average; unfortunately, Ireland is part of that group with a figure of 29%.

We are in this programme until the end of 2013 and the export-driven potential of what is to be unleashed when the action programme is implemented to improve the atmosphere and the environment for business to work and create jobs is very far removed from the sort of weekly rant from the Deputy, with everybody being scarified and driven into penury by a programme of austerity. It is far from that.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Has the Taoiseach read the growth rates?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will rectify our public finances, grow our country and give our people the opportunity to get back to work. I am sure even the Deputy would like to help us in that regard.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My question related to the progress made in regard to the proposed referendum to abolish the Seanad, and I did not get much beyond a statement that work is proceeding, which has been the line for the past 12 months. There seems to have been very little work put into this in advance of the election and one could be of the view that this proposal was tabled with a view to electoral popularity as opposed to being well thought out.

Our view is that the broader issue of fundamental reform of how Parliament does its business is required in regard to the proposed constitutional convention. We should consider whether we need a bicameral or unicameral Parliament. For example, if there was only one Chamber with the current Oireachtas, there would be a very unhealthy scenario with the Government having a significant Dáil majority, ramming legislation through and imposing guillotines, with no opportunity for debate in a second Chamber.

Will the Taoiseach produce an interim paper as internal work must be ongoing on options? How many articles will need to be amended, for example, and what is the impact of the proposal on the wider Constitution? What kind of ideas are being formulated? If an interim paper could be published on a proposed constitutional amendment to abolish the Seanad, it would be helpful to the debate. Many people have different views on the issue and the failure of this Oireachtas, for example, to deal adequately with European Union affairs on an ongoing basis or properly embrace the all-island economy and the North-South relationship, in conjunction with evaluating legislation.

There is also a need to radically reform how this House works. The collapse of the financial and banking world was global and not restricted to this country, and even now Spain, France and other countries are beginning to own up to their banking issues. Nevertheless, banking was only discussed once in this House in 12 years before the crisis. What does that teach us and what are we learning from that? It is not an example of a House working properly, irrespective of who occupies certain seats.

A constitutional convention relating to the abolition of the Seanad should not be done in isolation of more fundamental reform of this House. There should be real separation of Parliament from the Executive, and the Parliament should not be controlled by the Executive, as it has been almost from the foundation of the State. Perhaps members of the Government should no longer be Members of Parliament when they take up office. Those are the kinds of radical ideas we would like considered. We could examine the possibility of direct franchise to a second Chamber.

With regard to the fiscal treaty, I would like the Taoiseach's comment on the breaking news that French Prime Minister François Fillon has apparently stated that a referendum will be necessary for France to adopt a fiscal rule to balance its budget. Last July, the National Assembly and the Senate independently approved writing a fiscal rule into that country's constitution, although it was never taken to the congress of both houses, a necessary step to change the French Constitution. It is interesting that Mr. Fillon believes it necessary to hold a referendum on writing a golden rule for the budget into that constitution. In other words, there are varying political views on the issue and I would appreciate the Taoiseach's commentary on that development regarding the fiscal treaty.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not speak for Monsieur Fillon or President Sarkozy but I make the following point. The French system is very different and the French people voted down the Lisbon treaty referendum.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It was the European constitution.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As a candidate in the presidential campaign, Mr. Sarkozy said that if he were elected president, he would implement the Lisbon treaty by parliamentary majority, which is what he did. The French Government and system is their own and not for me to comment on. We have made clear issues of change by referendum here.

The other question related to the Deputy's party's set of proposals prior to the last election concerning parliamentary reform, some of which were very different and radical. It is part of the programme for Government that we intend to carry through. The drafting of a Bill to abolish the Seanad by way of referendum will require the deletion of all references to the Seanad in the Constitution, including Articles 18 and 19, which refer to the composition of the Seanad. There would also need to be amendment of all direct, indirect or implied references to the Seanad, including references to either or both Houses, as well as all references that vest specific functions in the Seanad or its Members. With this point, it would be necessary to consider, for example, if any functions currently constitutionally vested in the Seanad or its Members would need to be performed differently. The types of functions I refer to include, for example, the Presidential Commission, of which the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad is a member owing to Article 14. There is also the case of money Bills, as the Seanad triggers the process for determining whether a Bill is a money Bill. This is provided for in Article 22, but has never happened. The Seanad moves motions for the early signature of Bills by the President, as provided for in Article 25. Under Articles 12, 13, 33 and 35 of the Constitution, the Seanad has a role in the removal from office of the President, the Comptroller and Auditor General and judges. The current constitutional mechanisms safeguard the independence of these offices. Clearly, these principles will need to be carefully considered in the context of the proposed abolition of the Seanad. These issues are not to be taken lightly. From that perspective, when the Bill is prepared, it will have to ensure the Constitution is, in effect, squeezed dry of all direct or indirect references to the Seanad, implied or otherwise. No right or facility currently available through the Seanad under the Constitution should be lost by means of the changes that are to be made to the Oireachtas. That is an issue on which I am deliberating. As I said when we discussed the child protection referendum, we do not want to produce something that has not been fully thought through. These are some of the issues with which I have to contend. Obviously, many of them are not to be taken lightly.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Could the Government produce an interim paper on the challenges relating to any constitutional proposal to abolish the Seanad? The Taoiseach has just articulated some of the challenges in question.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not mind setting out some further thoughts on this for Members. I want to make it clear that this is included in the programme for Government.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We intend to follow through on it. I do not object to the Deputy's suggestion.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will the Taoiseach agree that historically, Fine Gael has used the Seanad as a rest home for some aging politicians and a nursery for others? In my memory, the Seanad has never seriously challenged a Dáil majority.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's memory is lapsing.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Does the Taoiseach agree that, contrary to what Deputy Martin seemed to suggest, the Seanad does not have any legitimacy as a check on this Chamber? Does he agree that as an institution, the Seanad does not have democratic legitimacy, given that its Members are selected in a totally undemocratic manner by a very select electorate? Does he agree that we should see the end of it as soon as possible? In three weeks time, the Taoiseach will mark the first anniversary of the formation of his Government. Given that he has had a full year in office, he should set out a timescale for this process and give us a date for the referendum, rather than enunciating all the difficulties associated with it. The Taoiseach has accused the United Left Alliance of doling out "the same old blather" every day. We have to listen to the same blather from him when he restates his political positions.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Tá an Teachta ag blatharáil arís.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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One of the aspects of the blather we hear again and again is the reference to the "programme".

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We do not want any blather on Question Time. The Deputy should ask a question.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is as if the State is a helpless victim of addiction who is on a programme. Will the Taoiseach agree that a referendum is needed on the austerity treaty?

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is not an austerity treaty.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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He is living in cloud cuckoo land if he compares what happened with the national debt between the mid-1990s and 2007 in terms of the rate at which the economy grew-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is straying.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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----with what is happening during this period of depression in world capitalism. He is living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks that can be repeated. Does he agree that a referendum is needed, especially to cure his delusion on this issue? We need a deep debate on the matter. Will the Taoiseach be specific on when the Attorney General will report to him or to the Government? When will he report to the people to allow the debate to start in a real way?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Unfortunately, we are repeating ourselves here. Some of these questions have been asked already.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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We did not get an answer.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not regard the Seanad as being a nursing home.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If it was, the Government would close it.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Many fine people have passed through its doors.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is facing the same fate as many nursing homes.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I set out my views on the Seanad a long time ago. They are reflected in the programme for Government. We will proceed with that in due course, when the Bill is ready. The anniversary of the formation of the Government will fall on 9 March next. I do not have a date for the Seanad referendum. I will not attempt to give a date until I have it right. I mentioned some of the issues that need to be dealt with when I replied to Deputy Martin. I do not live in cloud computing land or cloud cuckoo land - I live in the land of reality.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach was in a dense fog an hour ago.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The point I made to Deputy Boyd Barrett was that the reduction from 95% to 35% in the debt to GDP ratio during the 1990s was not brought about by an austerity programme. It was brought about by a programme of growth. That is the fundamental issue in the action plan for jobs and business, which was produced by the Government yesterday. I was asked when the Attorney General will come back to the Government. If I were to say to the House that I attempted to influence the work of the Attorney General, Deputies would have a very different story to tell me, and rightly so. The Attorney General is a constitutional officer of this State. The Government has responded properly and formally to the requirement that she be asked for her formal legal advice on this matter. No pressure is being put on the Attorney General to complete those deliberations within a certain timescale. She will come back to the Government in her own good time. I will report to the House and to the people immediately, just as I did when I referred the text through the Cabinet to the Attorney General for her advice the morning after it had been agreed by 25 of the 27 EU member states.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It appears that unlike the Taoiseach's ministerial colleagues, the Attorney General is not given a date for the completion of her homework.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is disappointing that the Taoiseach has descended to referring to views that are not in agreement with his own as "rant" and "blather".

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I referred to what happens every week.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Would it not be more accurate to use those words to describe the comments the Taoiseach made in Davos-----

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Go forward, Deputy.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----when he said the Irish people "went mad borrowing" and blamed them for the economic crisis?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is Question Time. The Deputy should ask a supplementary question.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Does the Taoiseach think the views of the majority of people in this country who want a referendum on this treaty, which will have a profound impact on our economy and on our society for years to come, are "rant" and "blather"? Regardless of the Taoiseach's views on the matter, does he agree that is a legitimate demand for people to make? They know we are facing a serious crisis. They know nobody has the answers. The public has good reason to believe our masters in Europe do not have the answers because they have not provided them so far. I do not even know if the Government-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a supplementary question, rather than statements?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Should the Taoiseach not respect the wishes of the majority of people who believe this treaty is so far-reaching and of such importance for them that a referendum should be held on it? The Taoiseach referred to the need for growth. I agree it is absolutely needed. Can he tell me what precisely in this treaty or in the Finance Bill 2012 will promote growth?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are not debating the content of the treaty.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Investment in the economy is needed if growth is to take place.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is set out in the jobs plan.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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This treaty requires precisely the opposite.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I suggest the Deputy should table a further question on the issue.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The fiscal compact is not the answer to Europe's problems.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is for sure.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It was never intended to be.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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What the hell is it about so?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It creates a political situation whereby countries that sign on for the conditions of fiscal discipline will adhere to them. That allows the politics of Europe to focus on the extent of the firewalls that are necessary to prevent contagion and look at the question of the potential of the European markets, particularly through the impact of the Single Market. It is a €500 million market, as Deputy Boyd Barrett is aware. It was pointed out in the United States last week that the further €500 million market that potentially exists on the periphery of the EU, for example in African countries that are enjoying growth of 6%, 7% or 8% at the moment, presents an enormous opportunity for Ireland, in particular, and for Europe.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Taoiseach will not even provide a target for the first and second years of the plan.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is by action and through expressions of hope and confidence that we will prove Ireland is serious about its business. As one serious investor said to me last week in the United States, Ireland must prove it is serious about its business. As leader of the Government, I expect to demonstrate in everything we do that we are serious about the nation's business. One year ago, people voted for this Government to sort out our public finances and create opportunities for jobs and careers. We will fulfil that mandate in the programme for Government, which people supported in unprecedented numbers.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Less hyperbole, exaggeration and partisanship might be a wiser position for the Taoiseach to take in the fullness of time. North American investors have realised we are serious for more than 30 years. That is the reason the top ten pharmaceutical companies in the world and some of the biggest names in technology are located in Ireland.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy ask a question, please?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Leader of the Opposition; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is also the reason we have, across the West, the largest cluster of medical device companies in Europe. Solid industrial advancement has been made in the past 30 years and has stood the test of time. This sector of the economy has proven particularly resilient in the teeth of the worst global recession since 1929.

On the amendment on child protection, will the Government consider accepting the legislation on adoption proposed by Deputy Charlie McConalogue? The Bill the Deputy introduced had all-party agreement, having been agreed in the previous Oireachtas, and has the merit that it could be passed in a reasonably short timeframe.

In an earlier partisan comment the Taoiseach stated this Government was the first to establish an office. The bottom line is that the offices of the Ombudsman for Children and Minister for Children were established previously and progressive work was undertaken by previous Ministers of State with responsibility for children. That should be acknowledged. I do not know if the Government is having difficulty bringing forward a proposal for a constitutional referendum. The previous Government had a proposal which was passed by the Cabinet. Deputy McConalogue introduced a Bill on adoption, which is a subset of the agreed proposal on which there is general agreement. If we passed that legislation, it would at least bring some respite and resolution to those facing challenges in the area of adoption in the absence of an amendment to the Constitution. In the absence of a willingness to accept Deputy McConalogue's constructive amendment, will the Taoiseach provide a timetable setting out when we can expect a referendum on children's rights?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I fully appreciate the scale of investment from abroad over the past 30 years during which Ireland became both a centre for the manufacture of hardware and later a centre for the creation of software. We have a proven track record of entry into Europe. The attributes built up by this country over a long period, including our taxation system, talent pool, technology and track record, are of immense importance in the considerations of outside investors. The other end of that is that the indigenous economy has been very flat. That is the reason the Government's action programme is based on opportunities for exports from small and medium sized enterprises. That is a given that most people would support. We also set out the view that cloud computing, digital gaming and the whole information technology sector is of considerable importance. It was made clear to me in the Deputy's beloved city that 800 vacancies in information technology and other sectors cannot be filled. We need to be able to adjust ourselves, as a nation, to where the waves of change are coming from.

I may have misled Deputy Martin when I said there was not any legislation in respect of adoption. There have been legislative measures in place for many years. What I am referring to is the legislation that the referendum will require in regard to adoption and on which the Minister for Children, Deputy Fitzgerald, is working. I do not propose to accept the well intentioned legislation of Deputy McConalogue. This is something we must get comprehensively right. I do not want to venture a date until I am satisfied that the Bill in respect of the referendum is absolutely comprehensive. The legislation will take account of the well intentioned amendments of Deputy McConalogue, which I know were not introduced for political purposes. The Minister has taken a broad range of views on this matter and we must get the legislation right. That is the reason a senior Minister with responsibility for children is dealing with it in this fashion.