Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, for coming to the House to respond to what I have to say on this issue. He will be aware that the correct sheep and cattle stocking levels on hill farms in the west of Ireland have been a matter of contention since the sheep premium was introduced in the 1970s. The introduction of the sheep premium caused two problems. The incentive to increase numbers at the expense of quality and sustainability meant that the price of sheep collapsed over time because of excess numbers and poor quality and that ecological damage took place. When a system incentivises bad practice, hard-pressed farmers will go with the flow. Recognising the damage caused by its policy, the EU reversed engines and for the past ten years pushed a policy of destocking. I accept some destocking was necessary but local farmers, who understand the hills better than anyone, now say that under-grazing is becoming a problem and that this could have even more serious consequences than over-grazing and it could be more difficult to resolve.

The Maamturks and Twelve Bens were very significantly destocked in recent years, on orders from the Minister's Department. If a hill becomes under-grazed, the issues arising relate to the growth of wooded material which sheep will not graze and this material then takes over the hill. This, in turn, leads to fires, especially in a dry spring season, which cause major ecological damage and present a significant hazard to human life and property. The only answer to under-grazing is to restock the hills, but this is not as simple as destocking on open hills such as in Connemara. The only way of restocking a hill is to breed the stock on the hill. Bought-in stock placed on a mountain, just like homing pigeons, will go back to the mountain on which they were reared. It is not a question of restocking by buying 50 more ewes and putting them out on the hill because it will be the case that the person who sold the ewes will end up with both the money and the ewes again.

The Minister will also be aware that on the hills in Connemara, for every 100 ewes put to the ram, one is lucky to get a survival rate into the first year of 79 lambs or 0.7% of a lamb per ewe. This is in the case of good hills while on the poorer hills it could be even lower. As half of these lambs will be ewe lambs and the others will be male lambs, the reality is there will be 0.35% of a ewe lamb to every ewe on the hill. One must then deduct from this statistic the fact that up to 10% of the sheep on a hill in a place like Connemara can die every year. I know this is a fact from my experience of running a hill farm. The older ewes must be sold. If one takes out the 15% sales, 10% mortality, one has 0.15% of an extra ewe per annum for every ewe. One hundred ewes will produce a very small gain and numbers will be very slow to increase.

It is imperative, therefore, before numbers become too small and before the under-grazing problems becomes too big an issue, that farmers would be allowed to restock their holdings. The National Parks and Wildlife Service and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, should not use excuses about resources but rather they should immediately review the number of stock each farmer is permitted to have.

It is also imperative that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht continue to pay compensation to farmers. There is no point in saying that a farmer can go from 70 ewes up to 120 ewes but that the money granted from destocking will be stopped. Restocking must be allowed to happen gradually because, as I have pointed out, it is not possible to go back to higher numbers of stock overnight. I ask that this not be allowed to become an even greater ecological disaster than the over-grazing situation, that this matter be tackled immediately and that farmers be allowed to have sustainable numbers of sheep to stop the hills being completely destroyed by overgrowth.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Ó Cuív for raising this matter. I am very familiar with this issue. I have met the IFA and groups of farmers from Connemara, Nephin and other parts of that region on a number of occasions in the past year.

Many commonages in the west were subjected to serious sheep over-grazing in the 1980s and into the 1990s, to such an extent that Ireland was brought to the European Court of Justice in June 2002. The court found that Ireland was in breach of the EU birds directive by permitting the deterioration of habitats of the red grouse and the State was obliged to take measures to resolve the effects of over-grazing.

The then Department of Agriculture and Food and the National Parks and Wildlife Service, which is now in my Department, co-ordinated a national survey of commonages to evaluate the condition of each commonage and to prescribe destocking where necessary. This survey was commenced in 1999 and the results and the required destocking were communicated to all shareholders in October 2002. The two Departments are currently carrying out a re-assessment of the commonages and it appears that substantial recovery has been delivered. However, there has been only limited recovery in the Twelve Bens-Garraun and Maamturk mountains special areas of conservation, SACs, in County Galway and the Owenduff-Nephin special protection area, SPA, in County Mayo. Therefore, some continuing restrictions are necessary in these areas until there is a significant recovery of the vegetation.

It is expected that all interventions in Mayo and Galway can end in November 2013 and cross-compliance norms will apply thereafter. In the Twelve Bens-Garraun and Maamturk mountains SACs, my Department is making top-up payments to REPS and AEOS farmers for these additional restrictions. These payments are designed to compensate farmers for losses arising from the necessary destocking and off-wintering of livestock. In the Owenduff-Nephin area, it was necessary to extend restrictions partially for a further two years to repair the vegetation where recovery had not been fully delivered.

In 2011, the National Parks and Wildlife Service made payments to farmers in these two areas of Galway and Mayo to the amount of €1.55 million. This was in addition to moneys paid by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine under existing REPS or AEOS contracts and single payment scheme. The payments made by my Department come exclusively from the national Exchequer and would not be necessary if the land was in good environmental condition. My Department is aware of the threat posed by under-grazing which can lead to increased growth and may pose a fire risk as well as reduced habitat quality. However, in the case of commonages in the Twelve Bens-Garraun and Maamturk mountains SACs, this risk is not deemed to be significant.

An essential component of the grazing package is that farmers must maintain sustainable stock numbers on the hill through their participation in a farm plan. There are no indications to date of any concerns in relation to compliance with this requirement. A review will be held in 2013 of the effect of the interventions and it is likely that stock numbers may then be allowed to increase.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Like many answers I get these days, it is beagánín débhríoch, ambiguous.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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One would swear the Deputy had not been in power when this happened.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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With no disrespect to the Minister, I was the first. The then Minister, Michael D. Higgins, brought in a directive and talked about destocking but I dealt with the issue. I do not mean any disrespect. The Minister might remember visits I paid to Kerry where I met farmers-----

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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We are going through with it now and it is working.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister, in his reply, stated: "It is expected that all interventions in Mayo and Galway can end in November 2013 and cross-compliance norms will apply thereafter." Will this include the Twelve Bens-Garraun and Maamturk mountains SACs, since these are in County Galway? He also stated: "An essential component of the grazing package is that farmers must maintain sustainable stock numbers on the hill through their participation in a farm plan." My understanding is that under the farm plans there is a maximum stock number. Is there also a minimum stock number and is every farmer also required to keep the minimum stock as well as the maximum stock? Clarification is required from the Minister. Does he accept it is too late when over-grazing is discovered because it will take many years for the farmers to build up the stock because the sheep must be bred on the hill and because of the mortality levels? The hills in Connemara, in some cases, would be much poorer in terms of land quality than those in the Minister's county of Kerry and we have a less benign climate. Does the Minister accept that it is a case of ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scolb, in other words, that it is too late when there is too much growth? The Minister might answer these three questions.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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These interventions were very necessary and made by the previous regime. To some extent, they are succeeding in reviving vegetation on mountains and hills. I am a hill walker and have seen interventions which have been effective. In case in which where there is too much growth there must be a correction.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the issue.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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As I outlined, the interventions in counties Mayo and Galway can come to an end in November 2013.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that true?

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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It is what I stated in my response. I have spoken to the people involved and have gone as far as Clifden to meet a number of farmers.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In the previous sentence the Minister spoke about restrictions.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I have given my reply.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What about the sentence mentioned?

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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We had an experienced official look at the area in November. He returned with a report indicating he was not happy with the position in some places, with which the Deputy is probably familiar. The report noted that whereas a recovery had been recorded in some townlands, there was still very poor cover of vegetation in vast areas of the Inagh Valley, specifically in Lehanagh north, Townamore, Lissoughter and Glencoh.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I know them well.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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In all these areas, the official concerned, based on a deep knowledge of the area, was not happy with what he had seen.

I travelled to Maam Cross in 1995 and 1996 when I was in charge of the rural environmental protection scheme, REPS. At the time parts of Connemara had been totally destroyed by overgrazing. I introduced a measure through the REPS which was effective. I love going to Connemara which is a special part of the world and an area we must protect. I am delighted to see the recovery that has taken place, in which the Deputy has played a role.

With regard to the Twelve Bens, Garraun and the Maamturk Mountains, I hope the restrictions will be removed in November 2013.