Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Question 1: To ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs if she will establish a State commission to inquire into child protection practices in church dioceses in order to give a voice to the victims of child abuse that the church and State failed over the years in order to deal with the issue comprehensively and provide closure; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [40762/11]

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The HSE, which has statutory responsibility for child welfare and protection, has been conducting a national audit of all Catholic dioceses and religious orders. It expects to be in a position in the spring of 2012 to furnish a report to me on the diocesan element of this audit. I have stated that the need for follow-up action will be informed by the findings of the national audit. It is my intention to publish the HSE's report when I receive it.

The HSE's national director for children and family services, Mr. Gordon Jeyes, is also at my request engaging directly with the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church on a programme of action designed to ensure that the Catholic Church is responding properly and comprehensively to all child protection concerns, and that it has in place the necessary safeguarding structures and practices to fully protect children who come into contact with the church.

As Deputies will be aware, as a Government, we are committed to strengthening the arrangements for the reporting of concerns of abuse by putting the Children First national guidance on a statutory basis. The necessary legislation is being worked on by my Department as a priority. This legislation will not only bring forward statutory requirements on organisations and individuals to report, but I believe it will also support all of civil society in understanding what to do when they have concerns about a child. The roll-out of Children First will require all sectors and organisations working with children, including the faith sector, to put in place and demonstrate that they have robust safeguarding arrangements. I very much welcome the work undertaken to date by the national board to strengthen child protection practices in the Catholic Church in line with this objective.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

We must also recognise that child abuse takes many forms and occurs in many settings. Anyone with child abuse concerns or information should not hesitate to come forward and assist the HSE and An Garda Síochána in their respective roles in carrying out their work to protect children.

Reports such as those published over the last number of years by various State-commissioned inquiries in respect of the dioceses of Ferns, Cloyne, Dublin and the report of the Ryan commission serve to remind us all that the abuse of a child is a crime which is to be abhorred and that those involved must be subject to the full rigour of the law. I fully recognise that these inquiries have provided an important opportunity for victims to have their voices heard and for the dreadful crimes committed against them to be exposed publicly.

Due to the number of clerics against whom complaints and allegations were made, in certain instances, for practical purposes it has been necessary to investigate a representative sample of cases. In Dublin a representative sample of 46 priests were investigated out of a total number of 102 falling within the commission's remit. In addition, other priests or religious against whom allegations were made may have fallen outside the time period covered by a statutory inquiry or, while operating in the relevant geographic area, may not have been working on behalf of the diocese concerned. Therefore, while the investigations conducted to date have shed light on the abuse perpetrated on many victims, for practical purposes they cannot relate the individual suffering of all of those who were abused, even in the three dioceses already examined.

I want to acknowledge those victims of clerical abuse who have shown great courage in coming forward to the authorities and thereby helped to expose a culture of secrecy that was endemic within some church dioceses and religious orders. I recognise this has been a very painful experience for many individuals who have had to battle to have their experiences heard and believed, and to have their suffering recognised. We must ensure that victims are supported in these circumstances. In this context, the HSE's national counselling service provides services to adult victims of past abuse and their families. The national counselling service is a professional, confidential counselling and psychotherapy service available free of charge in all regions of the Health Service Executive. Since 2000, the national counselling service has received over 20,000 referrals. The client group of the national counselling service includes adults who have experienced trauma and abuse in childhood, with priority given to adult survivors of institutional abuse in Ireland.

The HSE's audit will provide a comprehensive picture of current practice across all dioceses and will provide an overview of the handling of allegations up to November 2011. Taken with the work already completed, it will provide a fuller basis on which to determine the most appropriate next steps and will inform the Government's decisions in regard to this matter.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for her response on this matter. The six reports published by the National Board for Safeguarding Children two weeks ago outlined once again the abuse that many children had to suffer in this country in recent years. In regard to the six dioceses, that abuse was within the Catholic Church. The national board's report and work is commendable and welcome in the sense that it is ensuring that practices within the church at present are what they should be, identifying that the proper procedure and practice is in place and making recommendations to ensure that, where there are still some weaknesses, they are remedied immediately.

That board carries out its particular purpose. However, it does not go back over the failures of the church over the years, nor, indeed, does it take into account or examine how the State would have failed those victims at the same time. For those-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question, please.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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For those victims who were failed and let down by both the church and the State, whenever the abuse took place, it is critical that their voices are heard and that they can be given closure by an assessment of how they were let down at the time, so that this can be properly examined. The Minister's response to the publication of the six reports, of which the Raphoe report particularly stood out in terms of the practices that took place there, has been too vague and too weak.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Minister to reply.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I urge the Minister to consider setting up a commission which will, from the State's point of view, look into what happened and how the State failed those children, as they were at the time, and allow their voice to be heard, so we are not failing them once again.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the fact the recent publication of the six diocesan reviews has served as a very painful reminder to many victims of the abuse and cover-ups they suffered. However, in responding to the publication of these reviews, it is my view that it would be rash and ill-considered to immediately establish a new commission of inquiry, as the Deputy suggests, when we know an audit of all 24 dioceses is imminent, which will undoubtedly inform us how better to proceed. While I am not ruling out further investigations, I would make the point that, here in Ireland, 1,000 victims have told their story very poignantly to the confidential committee of the Ryan report, the most extensive listening exercise done within Europe, I would suggest, in regard to victims of abuse. That has been very important. I believe there is scope in the church and elsewhere to consider further how the experiences and the voices of victims can be heard, as they should be heard.

I acknowledge the great courage that victims of clerical abuse have shown in coming forward. If the Deputy's Government had published the reports and the audit, when it was done, the current audit which the HSE has done would have been available and up to date. It is delayed until the spring because it is important, when the report is published, that it gives an accurate, up-to-date picture, not an historical picture, of what the current situation is in regard to the audit of dioceses. For that reason, the HSE will extend its report to the spring to ensure it is not just an historical report but an up-to-date report. When I receive that, we will have a comprehensive picture of all of the dioceses. I will also be receiving, I hope, the work of other dioceses. The publication of reports on dioceses should not stop merely with the six dioceses; it should be comprehensive.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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We will deal with the HSE in a further question coming down the line. In fact, we have been waiting for that for six years.

However, I disagree entirely with the Minister that we should be waiting any longer and that those victims, who were abused and who were outlined in the reports we received in the past few weeks, should have to wait. The public, members of the church and, in particular, victims are tired of this drip feed of reports. We need a comprehensive way that will deal with it, once and for all. That demands nothing less than a State commission which can, from the State's point of view, assess where these victims were failed.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy McConalogue.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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In particular, the report on Raphoe shows how victims were failed in the past. Those people should not have to wait for other reports on which we have been waiting already for years. It demands immediate action.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call the Minister to reply.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I ask that the Minister set up a commission which can deal with and take on board the HSE audit when it comes out and also further reports from the national board.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call the Minister to reply.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I do not consider that an appropriate response to what is happening at present. It is important to realise that there have been quite a number of investigations. There has been the Cloyne report, the Murphy report and other reports. There has been a series of four reports. There have been the 1,000 victims who had their cases heard. It is important for me to point out to the House that, due to the number of clerics against whom complaints and allegations were made, in certain instances, for practical purposes, it has been necessary to investigate a representative sample of cases. In Dublin, for example, a representative sample of 46 priests were investigated out of a total of 102 falling within the commission's remit. Other allegations may have fallen outside the time period. While the investigations conducted to date have shed light on the abuse perpetrated on many victims, for practical purposes they cannot relate to the individual suffering of all those who were abused, even in those dioceses already examined. That is a point that Deputy McConalogue must take on board and understand. I think the public understands that.

We must look at other methods as well. While I am not ruling out that in some circumstances a commission of investigation may be necessary when the cross-referencing is done and when the HSE report comes out, it is important, as I stated, that, for example, the church and indeed the safe-guarding board could examine some of the material gathered which may address some of the points Deputy McConalogue raises. I intend to have further discussions. I have invited Mr. Ian Elliott and Mr. Gordon Jeyes to discuss with me these points to see how we might take further action to ensure victims' needs are further addressed. The church could also examine what it might do to meet the needs Deputy McConalogue outlined.