Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As the Minister will be aware, the growing problem of access to the services of free legal aid centres is causing crises for individuals who are on waiting lists for civil legal services. Figures provided by the Department show the number of people waiting for the services of free law centres increased from 1,681 people in January 2009 to 4,500 in September 2011. One must bear in mind that 74% of those on the waiting list are seeking legal services for the purpose of family law cases, whether emergency cases or cases involving divorce, separation, maintenance and so forth. I am aware that priority is given to urgent cases involving domestic violence and urgent child care needs.

One hears a great deal about the impact of the recession. The people affected by the delays in providing legal services include individuals whose relationships have broken down, those in negative equity and people who are trying to resolve problems related to family, children and property. To ask people in such circumstances to wait for up to 11 months at some law centres is tough and cruel. It creates major difficulties for those who are unable to avail of the advice of a solicitor for lengthy periods during which they believe their world is falling apart and they need some certainty, advice or professional input from a lawyer. Many of those affected have visited my clinic to raise this problem and my heart goes out to them

I ask that inroads be made in the waiting lists. The law centres seek to achieve an average waiting time of four months but are clearly unable to reach this target given that waiting periods have increased to 11 months in some cases. I commend many of the solicitors in private practice who give legal advice or guidance to people who cannot afford to pay for it but require independent, objective advice on their circumstances. For many of the individuals in question, solicitors who give their services free are a godsend.

The second aspect of the matter I raise is the possibility of generating some revenue through the criminal legal aid service. Last year, €56 million was spent on criminal legal aid and I understand the €47 million allocated for this year will be exceeded by approximately €10 million. As of 1 August, 33,225 legal aid certificates had been granted. I am not sure what the current figure is. Those who avail of the services of law centres are asked to pay a contribution towards the cost of the legal service provided. While the charge depends on the person's means, it may range from €1 to upwards of €50. On the other hand, people who receive legal aid certificates in criminal cases are not asked to pay anything. Information on re-offending levels among those who come before the courts, specifically those who receive non-custodial sentences, is not available. As a practitioner who did criminal work in the District Court, I used to see the same people repeatedly come before the court and receiving legal aid certificates at no personal cost. This practice is ridiculous and flies in the face of justice and common sense. If people receiving legal aid certificates, especially those who have reoffended, faced charges similar to those applied to those who receive civil legal aid, savings of approximately €3.3 million would have been made up to 1 August this year.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Mulherin for providing me with the opportunity to discuss the matters she has raised. As she knows, the Legal Aid Board has 33 full-time law centres located throughout the country, including seven located in Dublin. The board also operates a private practitioner service, refugee documentation service and library service in Montague Lane, Dublin. In addition, the functions of the Legal Aid Board were recently extended to include a family mediation service.

The past three or four years have seen a considerable increase in demand for legal services from the Legal Aid Board. This increase in demand has coincided with the downturn in the economy and greater pressure on Departments and their agencies to provide services from reduced financial resources.

In 2007, slightly more than 10,150 persons sought legal services from the board in relation to general civil, non-asylum matters, a substantial portion of which fell within the family law area. This figure increased to 17,175 in 2010, while the number of applicants in the first six months of this year was almost equal to the total number for the 12 months of 2007. The board has been proactive with regard to the provision of services at this time of increasing demand in a resource constrained environment. It has prioritised certain types of cases for immediate or near immediate service. Priority cases include those where allegations of violence have been made, child custody matters and where statutory deadlines are fast approaching when clients make their first contact with the law centre. These cases comprise some 15% of all applications. A considerable number of other applications are referred speedily to private practitioners. Up to 40% of all cases receive a very speedy service.

The budget for civil legal aid for 2012 is being maintained at the same level as for this year. However, the ongoing increase in the number of people seeking services from the Legal Aid Board makes it inevitable that difficulties will continue. As the Deputy may know, a new board was appointed this week and I am confident it will do its best to address the pressures under which it is operating.

The Legal Aid Board primarily provides legal services through law centres located throughout the country. I am acutely aware that as a consequence of the relatively small number of staff, a retirement or maternity related absence can have significant impact on the capacity of an individual law centre to provide services. The board has been to the fore in making use of the JobBridge scheme. It has retained a number of solicitors who are making a valuable contribution to the board's work in that regard. while at the same time gaining valuable experience that will assist them in the jobs market. The board will pilot an initiative early next year. It is a somewhat different approach to the provision of legal services. It will attempt to ensure every applicant for legal aid gets an appointment with a solicitor within three to four weeks. The person may have to wait for a period of time if he or she wants representation in court, or further steps undertaken on his or her behalf. The Deputy may be aware that in November of this year, I announced the formal integration of the family mediation service with the board. I hope many of the family disputes that have resulted in litigation up to now will be resolved through the use of the mediation service.

I would like to speak briefly about the criminal legal aid scheme. As the Deputy knows, the scheme is demand-led in the sense that it is affected by the incidence of crime, the rate of detection and the prosecution of cases. It is difficult to anticipate the level of activity in this area and to control the costs associated with it. This year's Estimate for the criminal legal aid scheme was €47 million, but that has been exceeded by €10 million to date. It is estimated that the ultimate out-turn will be €57.5 million. Just €47 million will be available for the scheme next year. As Minister, I have to find savings of €10 million. Of necessity, a number of cost reduction measures were implemented this year, including a 10% reduction in the fees and rates payable to legal practitioners under the scheme.

As in other sectors of the economy, the reduction in the fee rates paid under the scheme has had an impact on practitioners. Nevertheless, they cannot be exempt from the financial stringencies that are applying across the public sector, or from the difficulties the State is experiencing within the funds available to it. We have identified a series of cost-saving measures which we hope to implement in 2012. The Deputy's specific suggestion that every successful applicant for criminal legal aid should have to make some initial payment has been investigated by the Department of Justice and Equality. Unfortunately, an examination of the matter has given rise to the receipt of advice to the effect that if we were to introduce such a payment, it could give rise to constitutional difficulties and difficulties pursuant to the European Convention on Human Rights. Nevertheless, we will explore the matter further in so far as we can.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I suppose I am most interested in the latter part of the Minister's answer. While I understand the difficulties that potentially exist, I suggest that a fee of between €10 and €50 would be affordable even for someone on social welfare, especially if it were spread over a period of time. It would represent some form of justice. I appreciate that people are not guilty until they are tried and their cases heard. However, many of those who break the law are reoffenders. A woman and her children will have to wait between six and 11 months to be seen by a solicitor in a law centre, whereas someone who breaks the law tonight will get legal aid in the morning. While I accept that such people need to be represented, I do not think it is excessive to deduct between €10 and €50 from their social welfare over a period of time to facilitate that. It might mean they have to do without a packet of cigarettes, or stay out of the bookies, for a week. I am not generalising when I say there are many cases of that nature. There is merit in providing for such a levy. I agree this service should be provided, but those who avail of it should have to pay something towards it. I do not think the rest of society should have to pay in every way for the actions of these people.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy might be aware that the judgment which was delivered by the courts in the 1976 case of State (Healy) v. O'Donoghue, which has been reiterated in many judgments since then, provides for a constitutional right to legal aid in criminal cases. As I have already mentioned, there is a view that a small application fee might deter some applicants from availing of the scheme in circumstances in which they perhaps should not benefit from such a scheme. It is important that we remember there is a presumption of innocence in criminal prosecutions. Those who cannot afford to pay for legal representation have a constitutional right to obtain it. We must respect our Constitution and the obligations imposed on this State by the European Convention on Human Rights. Detailed consideration is being given to the possibility of introducing a scheme of the kind she has proposed. Even if it were constitutionally feasible, I would have to ensure it would be of financial benefit. We should not introduce a scheme that would create further unnecessary administrative expense which could exceed any financial benefit that might accrue to the State. I appreciate the Deputy raising this issue. Although we should protect the rights of those accused of crime and ensure they are properly legally represented, it is of huge importance that we ensure taxpayers' money is not wasted at the same time. There is an overriding need to bring the cost to this State of the criminal legal aid scheme under some level of control. It is not tenable that this year, the scheme will cost €10 million more than the provision made for it by the State.