Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Question 10: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government the average rental revenue received by local authorities per council house and the amount that would be received by local authorities if all those currently in receipt of rent allowance, or in the rental accommodation scheme or long term leasing arrangements with private landlords were in council houses; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37696/11]

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Question 16: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government the average rental revenue received by local authorities per council house and the amount that would be received by local authorities if all those currently in receipt of rent allowance, or in the rental accommodation scheme or long term leasing arrangements with private landlords were in council houses and the rent they were paying was going to local authorities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37692/11]

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Question 43: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government the average rental revenue received by local authorities per council house and the amount that would be received by local authorities if all those currently in receipt of rent allowance, or in the rental accommodation scheme or long term leasing arrangements with private landlords were in council houses; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37695/11]

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 10, 16 and 43 together.

Each housing authority determines the rents for its own area having regard to a range of considerations which reflect tenants' ability to pay. While there are no up-to-date figures on the national average rent, it is estimated, based on past figures, that the average differential rent per local authority tenant is of the order of €55 per week.

There are almost 16,000 tenants of private landlords in receipt of social housing support. Allowing for transitional arrangements in some authorities, the rental contributions charged under the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and the social housing leasing initiative are based on the differential rents for the area. On the basis that the distribution of households for RAS and leasing is the same as that for social housing generally, the annual contribution of tenants towards the rent would be around €45 million. With regard to tenants under the rent supplement scheme, without a full breakdown of the location, household composition and income status of households, it is not possible to determine how much rental income would accrue to housing authorities were such households to transfer to social housing.

An analysis of the levels of contribution across the different rental assistance schemes is part of the work being undertaken by the Housing Finance Agency in advancing Government policy in regard to the transfer of responsibility for assisting recipients of rent supplement from the Department of Social Protection to housing authorities.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I think the Minister understands the logic of my question. At a rough calculation, based on questions I asked in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, the average rent is estimated at approximately €600 a month, approximately €7,000 a year per tenant, and this is in differential rent schemes. Every year, we are spending approximately €500 million or more of public money in the form of rent allowance and it is going into the pockets of private landlords and developers, many of them are the very same developers who helped bankrupt this country. If those tenants, who are all housing applicants, were to be housed by local authorities, we would save approximately €0.5 billion a year directly and we would accrue, I estimate, about another €0.5 billion in revenue to the State. This is a no-brainer. Why do we not do it? We could move immediately in this direction by directly taking into local authority control empty housing and developments in the hands of the NAMA developers. In addition, I do not understand the logic of ending the direct construction of social housing when it pays the State a return to have its own local authority housing and the revenue would return directly to the State. Rent allowances or leasing arrangements would not then be required which subsidise private landlords and developers. We could make €1 billion in savings a year if we did this so why is it not done?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will allow the Deputy to speak again.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I share some of the principle espoused by Deputy Boyd Barrett and this is the reason I have been engaging with the National Asset Management Agency over the past two months to see what can be done to marry the supply and demand situation in the major cities. Approximately 10,000 units of accommodation are currently being assessed by NAMA, the Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency and my Department to establish how progress can be made to house people on the social housing list in those properties. I do not subscribe to the notion that the State must pay a lease or a rent supplement for ever and a day. There should always be an option to buy at the end of the process; otherwise the property reverts to the local authority or to the tenant in some way. We agree on the principle of trying to mobilise the high level of availability of housing units. For example, if NAMA could upgrade the properties and ensure they are in good building condition, because we do not want more problems of the kind we spoke about earlier, they could then be offered to people on the social housing lists around the country. This would be a way of dealing with a significant social problem.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That sounds good. However, I may stand to be corrected but that does not seem to be the situation. As I understand it, it is proposed to lease the NAMA properties from the developers. These are developers who are bankrupt and whom we are bankrolling. Why not just transfer the houses, once it has been ascertained that these are up to standard, directly into the hands of the local authorities and cut out the developers so that the rental revenue accrues directly to the State? The cost of leasing from these private developers would be saved. I do not understand why this appears to be the policy as enunciated in June of this year by the Government. It says it is abandoning direct build, probably on the grounds that it does not have the money. This, however, is an investment which guarantees a return in the form of the rental revenue. It will pay for itself over the long term, both in terms of the money saved from not having to fork out rent allowance payments to private landlords and the rental revenue that will accrue. Even the troika could see the logic of that. I do not understand why the Government will not move in that direction, not to mention the jobs which would be created.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I can assure the Deputy I am not dealing directly with developers on this matter. I am dealing with the National Asset Management Agency which has acquired these properties at a particular price. On the basis of the existing legislation establishing NAMA, it is expected to have a commercial return. Perhaps that legislation should be amended but this is the situation as it exists. I am pleased to inform the Deputy that I have arranged a meeting for 14 December 2011 with the chairman and the chief executive of the National Asset Management Agency and I will be glad to report to the Deputy.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Approximately 100,000 people are on RAS, rental accommodation and rental subsidies schemes. This approximates to an expenditure of €500 million in rent allowances. Much of this expenditure goes to private landlords and, in many cases, the landlords also avail of mortgage interest relief.

The Minister referred to bringing 10,000 units of accommodation up to an acceptable standard. By our calculations, a total of €51.6 million would be saved on rent supplement and differential rates would raise €15 million a year. This policy has the potential to raise and save €66.6 million for the Exchequer in a full year with a saving of €20 million in 2012.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy, this is Question Time.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I am coming to the question.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is a maximum of one minute per supplementary question. I will allow the Deputy back again but I ask him to ask the question and I will get him an answer from the Minister.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I would much prefer the Minister to look at delivering social housing for the communities and to target these places where significant resources are being expended through rental subsidies to private landlords. We need to target the people who are in these places and allow the local authorities the opportunity to buy these premises or to have them available from NAMA or otherwise. For example, a local authority could put a deposit on a number of houses and repay over a period of time. At least, these properties could be bought and put back into the system-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask for a reply from the Minister.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Money would come back into the system and also the housing stocks would be brought up to modern standards. The local authorities would benefit from the extra money and it would help revive the building industry and create more jobs.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the information from Deputy Ellis about the savings I could make with regard to many of the housing schemes. I think he should be in the Department of Finance. He is correct that there is considerable waste of resources, and Deputy Boyd Barrett has also pointed out how we could achieve better value for the State. I thank Deputies for their words regarding the excellent work in this area of the former Minister of State, Deputy Willie Penrose. He and I have been putting pressure on the National Asset Management Agency to realise the social dividend required in this case. I can assure the House that I will not be found wanting when it comes to putting all the pressure possible on NAMA to give us the details of whatever properties are appropriate and in a suitable condition to be fit for purpose under the law to deal with the social demands on the social housing list. I assure the House I will report on a regular basis as to the progress or otherwise.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I need the Minister to explain the contradiction between the impression he gives about his dealings with NAMA and some possible outcome that he might acquire the properties permanently and the reality of government social housing policy which is, as Deputy Boyd Barrett said, one of long-term leasing where local authorities are required to enter into an arrangement to lease a property for ten or 20 years and, at the end of the period, to restore that property back to its own private owner. This is at the council's expense and the person living in that property is then homeless after ten or 20 years and has no right to buy it. The Minister stated he would like that to be the case. Is the Minister actively reviewing the existing arrangement for long-term leasing?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am not in favour of the present model of leasing.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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That is excellent.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased the Deputy and I agree. This is the first time she has said something positive.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We are all on the same side now.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Deputies to capitalism.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister is speaking of socialism.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am speaking of looking after people and home ownership which may initially involve people renting properties. Today, one of our national newspapers is advising people to rent rather than buy because the price of properties is set to fall further. Unlike the newspaper in question, I do not have a crystal ball. The leasing and rental accommodation model currently in place is not working. I want tenants to be given an opportunity to own the home they rent within the shortest possible timeframe, subject to their means.