Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Question 1: To ask the Minister for Defence if he discussed the proposed closure of military barracks with the army authorities during his trip to the Lebanon on 14 to 16 October 2011; the conclusions of those deliberations; if he has reached any decision on barrack closure recommendations; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31634/11]

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Question 2: To ask the Minister for Defence the timeline for either the decision to be taken on the closure of Defence Force barracks or the actual closures of barracks; if he will detail the closures barracks by barracks and explain the results of these closures as regards personnel and the operational capacity of the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31636/11]

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Question 3: To ask the Minister for Defence if he will confirm that Kickham Barracks, Clonmel, County Tipperary will remain open as a fully manned and fully functioning army barracks; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31735/11]

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

As of now, no decision has been made by Government on the future of any military installation. However, the closure of barracks will shortly be considered by Government as part of the comprehensive review of expenditure.

Various commissions, reports and studies dating back to the 1990s identified barrack closures as a fundamental requirement for improving military effectiveness and efficiency. Since 1998, a total of ten barracks have been closed under two barrack consolidation programmes. A total of €84.98 million has been realised from the disposal of six of these barracks and part of another. The moneys realised from the sale of these and other Defence properties have been reinvested in equipment and infrastructure for the Defence Forces.

My priority must be to ensure that all decisions regarding resource allocation are focused on maximising the capabilities of the Defence Forces and ensuring its continued operational capacity. Also, I am anxious to ensure, in so far as is possible, that the Government is not compelled by fiscal and budgetary constraints to effect any substantial further reduction in the current number of personnel in the Defence Forces. As on previous occasions, a Defence Forces security assessment will inform deliberations on any proposed closures.

I regret that prior to this matter being considered by Government in the context of the overall review of expenditure, uncertainty has arisen as to the future of barracks and that this is a cause of concern to members of the Defence Forces and family members. As a consequence of the appalling financial legacy inherited by the Government, we are obliged to implement a substantial reduction in public expenditure. My obligation as Minister for Defence is to engage fully in the review of expenditure that is being undertaken. The Government has no choice but to ensure that this State fully meets its obligations under the EU-ECB-IMF agreement concluded by the previous Government in November 2010. Against that background, it is completely unrealistic to ask, as has been asked in that past, that any aspect of defence expenditure, including barrack operation and maintenance, be excluded from review.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I compliment the Minister on his trip to the Lebanon to meet our forces there. I understand that this morning a new batch of troops was in training in the Glen of Imaal this morning. We wish them well.

Has the Minister received a report on consolidation of barracks from the military authorities? If so, will he publish it before making a decision? On the Minister's comment in regard to the uncertainty around this issue, that uncertainty is not being introduced by Members of this House but by military authorities who are visiting the barracks and giving indications in regard to their future. We have presented several opportunities in the House for the Minister or representatives of his Department to demonstrate how much will be saved from a further consolidation programme in the context of a property market in which Government will be unable to sell the properties, the considerable amount it will cost to protect the barracks it proposed to consolidate or close and the extra money by way of allowances and cost of movement. No one from the Minister's Department has taken the opportunity to demonstrate to us what savings, if any, will be made.

I compliment the Minister on his meeting last Thursday with the groups from Cavan, Mullingar and Clonmel. Arising out of that meeting, was any information given to the Minister by the military authorities or local groups which the Minister is now prepared to use in assessing the reports before him?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Later Questions deal with the President's visit to our troops in Lebanon. I accompanied the President on her visit to Lebanon. It was a worthwhile and informative visit. I do not want to take up the time allocated to this question to address that issue other than to say it was a great pleasure to accompany the President and Senator McAleese on that visit and to see at firsthand the extraordinary work she does and the warmth she shows to our troops who are engaged in peacekeeping and to everyone she meets. The President makes an extraordinary impression on those she meets, including on members of the Lebanese Government during our meeting with them.

On the closure of barracks, at the request of Fine Gael colleagues I met with groups from the areas mentioned in the media in respect of barrack closures. Our meetings last week were detailed, lengthy and considered. I thank the groups who met with me. We had a worthwhile and constructive engagement. I listened carefully to all that they had to say. As I have stated previously in the House, no final decisions have been made. The concerns expressed to me by the groups will feed into the process in which we are currently engaged. I explained to the groups, as I did to Members of this House, the enormous financial constraints under the Government is operating. My obligation as Minister for Defence is not merely to identify savings that can be achieved next year and the years following in order to meet our EU-IMF obligations but to ensure the resources we have are used wisely and in a manner that ensures the Defence Forces can to the maximum extent possible meet its obligations as a civil authority and in international missions in which it is engaged.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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On the comprehensive review on spending, will any analysis be undertaken of the impact of consolidation or closure of barracks on local economies? While money might be saved through the consolidation of barracks, the removal of a barracks from a local community could lead to job losses because there are local services which rely on them. Has any analysis been done of what moneys will be saved versus the potential loss of revenue in terms of jobs and community services? If so, will it form part of any decision or will such decision be based only on how much can be saved through the consolidation or closure of barracks?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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My primary obligation as Minister for Defence, while remaining aware of the impact of barracks in local communities, is to ensure that we use the resources provided to the Defence Forces to the best extent possible. Bearing that in mind, I must make decisions based on the importance of retaining men and women, the number of which has now fallen below 9,500, or buildings in the Defence Forces. These are serious decisions which I must address.

The delegations with whom I met expressed concern in regard to the impact on local towns of any possible closures. I am conscious of the concerns articulated to me. However, should closures take place, it is anticipated, based on past experience, that the impact on local communities would be negligible because most of the personnel serving in barracks which close continue to live in the areas in which they previously resided. Following the closure of four barracks in 2009, no families have as yet made claims for allowances which they could have claimed had they moved residential location. It is not anticipated, if there are closures, that there will be widespread movement of people out of local towns. This means that closure of a barracks does not to any extent result in people losing their jobs, rather it means that the location of where they work rather than live changes. Much of the spending power of those who served in a barracks in a particular location remains within the area in which their families live.

If we were in different financial times and if the State was flahulach with money this would not be an issue we would necessarily be pursuing. In the context of the review, I must have regard to advice given to me by those in the Defence Forces as to the strategic necessity and relevance of particular barracks and as to whether the Defence Forces could perform functions more efficiently by further barracks consolidation. That, of course, is a very serious issue which must feature in any final decision we make.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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I thank the Minister for his response and for meeting the deputation from Clonmel last Thursday. In regard to any decision to close any of the barracks - Clonmel is the one about which I am most concerned - surely the focus should not only be on the effects on the Department of Defence. Surely there should be a full appraisal of all the consequences of a closure and a full cost benefit analysis of all the effects of a closure, including the effects on families.

It has been said there will be no redundancies or job losses as a result of this but what is meant is that there will be no compulsory job losses. Significant numbers of soldiers will not be able to transfer, as the Minister said. The Clonmel people have indicated that in the event of a closure, it would cost a family in the region of an additional €3,000 per year for transport. That means many soldiers will find themselves in the position of having to leave the Defence Forces. There will be knock-on effects in regard to additional social welfare payments and higher education grants payments, for instance.

There will be significant effects on the local economy. At our meeting last week, the chief executive officer of the local chamber of commerce indicated that 30 local suppliers supplied the barracks. There is no doubt there will be knock-on effects resulting in jobs losses and probably even the closure of local businesses. Will the Minister focus not only on the Department of Defence but on the consequences of such a closure?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for his question and for his courtesy when we met the delegation from Clonmel. I am acutely conscious that the closure of barracks is disruptive both for the men and women based in a particular barracks and for family members. I am under no illusion in that regard. It is disruptive and creates inconvenience and difficulty and I am conscious of that. I am also conscious that it has some economic consequences for local suppliers of individual barracks. I am simply saying that in the overall context of the experience of the closure of barracks, it does not result in wholesale movement of families from one town to another. I am advised that has not been the experience of the four barracks closures the previous Government effected in 2009.

At the end of the day, my duty as Minister for Defence is to ensure we have a Defence Force that can operate to the optimum of its capabilities and to ensure the reduced resources available to me are applied in the most efficient manner and that there is not a waste of resources. I am also very concerned, as I know the Deputy is, to ensure that we maintain, as best we can, the strength of the Defence Forces. In the early 1980s, the Defence Forces stood at 15,000. We are now just below 9,500, a figure below which I do not want us to drop. I would like us to retain 9,500 as the strength of the Defence Forces and not go below that. Until the budgetary matters are addressed, I cannot even guarantee that will be the case.

If I have a choice of maintaining barracks and buildings, which I am advised by those who are expert in these things in the Defence Forces have no strategic importance, and by retaining them having reduced numbers within the Defence Forces or if I have the alternative option of at least doing my best to maintain numbers and, as a result close barracks which have no strategic importance, I would prefer we retain the number of men and women in the Defence Forces than maintain barracks which may only be partially filled because of the reduction in numbers. This is a very serious issue.

The Deputy will appreciate that in the very detailed discussions we had with the delegation from Clonmel, they understood the dilemma I have in this context. This is an issue about which we will have to make final decisions as we go through the month of November.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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On the impact analysis of closing a barracks, the Minister said the indications were that there would be minimal impact on local economies. Have reports been done on that following previous closures? If so, are those reports available? Can Opposition spokespersons get copies of them?

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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An important factor in the case of Kickham Barracks in Clonmel is that the complex is a protected structure. There might have been a chance of selling a barracks in buoyant property times but the fact this complex is a protected structure and is particularly important will mean it will not be possible to this property if it comes on the market. We do not want to end up with a barracks like McKee Barracks, which is effectively derelict.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Minister make the advice he has received from the experts in terms of military efficiency, the make-up of the barracks structure in the country and the most recent advice he has available to the House while removing the security aspects of it? Clearly, we do not want to see any that would jeopardise security procedures. Could he place other general information in the Oireachtas Library or before the Oireachtas committee?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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To take Deputy Calleary's question, I cannot recall advice given by the military authorities to the Minister for Defence being published in the manner in which he states. There are clear security issues involved in that type of matter and it would be inappropriate and a dangerous precedent to publish that type of advice. I believe the Deputy knows that.

Every barracks in the country has unique features in the context of their history. Some buildings in various barracks have preservation orders on them. The barracks constructed in Cavan some years ago and from which I met delegation last week was a state-of-the-art barracks built for a particular purpose. I reiterate to Deputies that the circumstances in which we find ourselves, the reduction in real numbers in the Defence Forces and the importance of ensuring we use the capabilities to the maximum possible extent, require that we address these issues and we make what may well be very difficult decisions.

In the context of the current financial climate, I referred to the moneys raised from the sale of barracks. It probably was not envisaged in 2009 that the four barracks that were closed would give rise to very substantial moneys being realised but based on arrangements completed and arrangements being entered into, it is estimated that by next spring, approximately €5.5 million will be raised from the sale of properties associated with the four barracks closures in 2009.

If barracks are closed, I believe value can be realised from those sales to the benefit of the Defence Forces to reinvest in equipment and maintain equipment standards to the highest level and to the benefit of local towns in that if alternative uses can be identified for barracks, it may stimulate the economies of local towns instead of having a detrimental impact on them. These issues are of significant importance and we will address them carefully should barracks close.