Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Question 11: To ask the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government his plans for regulating bodies and persons in view of the sizeable role that voluntary housing associations, private landlords and developers will be playing in the new social housing policy [30408/11]

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Government's new housing policy, launched in June, is predicated on a more integrated, choice-based and tenure-neutral approach to social housing provision. It will mean a much greater role for approved housing bodies in the voluntary and co-operative sector as providers of social housing. As such, I intend to develop an enabling regulatory framework for the sector that will provide support and assurance both for the sector and its external partners as it takes on an expanded role. I will develop this framework in consultation with the sector, but I expect that it will assist approved housing bodies to develop key governance and management structures to facilitate an expanded remit; provide independent scrutiny and validation of such bodies' competences; and place sustainable housing management policies and practices at the heart of a co-ordinated approach to the development of the sector.

The move from capital funded programmes of construction and acquisition to more revenue-funded options presents challenges for the sector. The regulatory framework will assist in meeting these challenges and facilitating the sector in attracting the loan finance necessary to deliver on its expanded remit. The development of a regulatory framework will take time. In the meantime, I wish to work with the sector on the development of a voluntary code to which, I hope, most approved housing bodies will sign up over time. This code which I would like to agree in 2012 will serve as a learning opportunity for the sector and my Department as we develop a longer term statutory framework that will best support the sector.

It is also my intention to extend the remit of the Residential Tenancies Act to those segments of the voluntary and co-operative housing sector that most closely parallel the Act's current remit.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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A shocking 96,000 people are on housing waiting lists, many for as long as ten years. Most of the people on the list believe that at the end of their unacceptable wait they will get a council home with proper standards and a housing authority that is accountable to the public in terms of the condition of that housing. They do not realise that the Minister ended those hopes in June with his proposals on outsourcing social housing to private landlords' leasing arrangements and now with the new proposals on the banks, they may even have bankers as landlords. This makes no sense in light of the rental revenue lost to the State and the stupidity of handing over €600,000 per year to private landlords.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a question? The Deputy is running out of time.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Given that the Minister seems intent on these reforms, what assurance can he offer that we will not end up with a repeat of the 19th century style of slum landlord? If there is no regulation, we will return to the tenements of the 19th century. I have heard appalling stories about the conditions that people face when renting from private landlords, although I do not want to tar all of them with the same brush. These stories have included RAS tenancies. What assurances can the Minister give tenants that they will get proper, high quality housing rather than slum landlords?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If Deputy Boyd Barrett was here earlier he would have had information about what we are doing.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I followed the debate.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I know he is busy. We have engaged with the over-supply in the housing market. We do not need to construct new homes because we already have them. We have to match supply with demand from people on the social housing lists. We have engaged with the National Asset Management Agency to assign the over-supply of housing it controls in major urban areas to local authority lists. We are working in a proactive way to make supply meet demand. We will use State resources to assist people into proper accommodation. It is costing us a significant amount of money but we want people to get high quality accommodation and, equally, be able own their own homes in time. Our first port of call is to ensure people on local authority housing lists are able to get good accommodation in the private market. Ultimately these properties may be sold to their occupants.

We are not involved with any slum landlord class. I do not know where the Deputy got that idea. We are trying to help people into quality accommodation.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am concerned about the cost of leases. Accommodation is being taken from the private sector in three ways, namely, RAS, social leasing and the rent allowance. When that is totted up at the end of the year it will be a substantial amount and the costs will mount over several years.

I also wish to ask about the property portfolio of voluntary housing organisations. New voluntary housing bodies are popping up or coming from other jurisdictions to set up shop here. They are acquiring substantial property portfolios with taxpayer subvention. The taxpayer might end up funding these organisations without being able to exercise control over them. What percentage of the tenants of voluntary housing organisations have to be taken from the local authority waiting lists?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I do not understand why we do not build 6,000 houses for the €600 million we are paying out between RAS and the rent allowance. We would recoup the rental revenue on these properties.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We have them already.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We do not have social houses. There are 90,000 people on the housing lists.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy was not listening earlier.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Even though there are 90,000 people on housing lists, the Minister does not want to build social housing.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry Deputy, it is Question Time.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Instead we will possibly lease property from bankers, private landlords and these private bodies. In some cases we are paying for the housing that will be managed by the voluntary housing bodies but we will not receive rent. It does not make sense.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has the Deputy a question?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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If we are paying out €600 million per year-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is Question Time. Ask a question.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----over ten years, we could build all the social housing we need.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Ask a question, please.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We would have the asset and the rental revenue instead of outsourcing to organisations over which we have no control.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am surprised Deputy Boyd Barrett is against the involvement in the housing market of not-for-profit organisations like voluntary housing associations.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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In England they are big business.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am surprised that he is against not-for-profit.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am not.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We are working with the resources available to us but because of the reckless policies pursued previously, we are where we are. We have an over-supply of housing which we are trying to marry with the lists of people who genuinely need social housing and we are doing this proactively with rent support, leasing arrangements and, ultimately, allowing people to purchase their own homes and live in good quality accommodation. We are doing no more and no less than that.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Why will he not make them council houses?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will not do that. We will not do everything the Deputy suggests. We are working with not-for-profit organisations as well as the public sector to deliver quality housing and accommodation through State supports administered by the Department of Social Protection and the local authorities.