Dáil debates

Tuesday, 11 October 2011

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

Social Partnership

3:00 pm

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on recent contacts with trade union and employers bodies. [24430/11]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the recent contact he has had with the social partners. [26090/11]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach if he has in place within his Department any formal mechanism for holding consultations with social partners; and if he is satisfied with any such arrangement. [28459/11]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach if he has held any recent consultations with trade unions, employer organisations or other social partners. [28460/11]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to answer Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.

I addressed the IBEC president's dinner on 22 June and met with representatives of IBEC on 20 July. I addressed the IBEC HR leadership summit last week. I spoke at the biennial conference of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, on 4 July and met with officials from ICTU on 28 June, in advance of that conference.

At my meetings with employer and trade union representatives I outlined the Government's approach to restoring economic and fiscal stability and the importance of the jobs agenda, which is at the heart of our programme. Our discussions also covered a broad range of issues of mutual concern.

I met representatives of the Irish Farmers Association on 12 July last and also met members of the wider farming community at the National Ploughing Championships on 22 September. I met representatives of all the social partnership organisations, including the environmental pillar and the community and voluntary pillar, when I addressed the inaugural meeting of the new National Economic and Social Council on 17 June.

In all of these engagements I confirmed my intention to follow up these meetings as part of a wider process of social dialogue. In particular, I anticipate meeting some of the social partners, along with the Tánaiste, in November. I also envisage an enhanced role for the National Economic and Social Council, as a vehicle for dialogue on the economic, social and environmental challenges facing the country.

I look forward to future contacts with the social partners as part of the Government's efforts to ensure economic and social recovery.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I put it to the Taoiseach that it is a sham to pretend there is such a thing as ongoing partnership between the Government and the trade union movement in current circumstances, when the Government accedes to the diktats of the EU, IMF and ECB with regard to a range of issues which have detrimental effects on the lives and living standards of working people, including those represented by trade unions, and when the Government unilaterally decides to hammer pension rights and wages and privatise semi-State bodies to pay off speculating bondholders and bankers. Can the Taoiseach say there is, in any sense, a dialogue between the Government and the representatives of workers, when all these decisions are made and imposed?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not a sham. We have completed all the conditions that were signed on for in respect of the Troika. We have resisted efforts by the Troika to move in particular directions and have renegotiated elements of the programme. I made it clear to the social partners that we will not be returning to the social partnership model as applied previously but that there is a clear line of communication between employers and trade unions and the Government. The Tánaiste outlined this very clearly at the SIPTU conference last week. We have made that clear to employers and trade unions - the social partners, as were - and we intend to adhere to that.

There is no sham, other than to say the Government is open to engagement with the different groups and to hearing their proposals on a regular basis. They understand that and we will continue to operate in that manner.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In his meetings with the employers and trade union leaders did the Taoiseach discuss the joint labour committees, JLCs? I appreciate the fact that the Government did not oppose the Sinn Féin Bill relating to the joint labour committees last Friday. Tá Sinn Féin ag tabhairt amach, agus an ceart againn, go bhfuil an Rialtas an-thapaidh chun reachtaíocht a bhrú tríd an Oireachtas ar son an EU agus an IMF, ach tá sé i bhfad níos maille maidir le reachtaíocht chun cearta na n-oibritheoirí a chosaint.

What steps has the Government taken to ensure that the 180,000 employees who were abandoned by the JLC High Court judgment in July are to be protected?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The principal measures will include the following. The number of JLCs will be reduced from 13 to six. JLCs will have the power only to set a basic adult rate and two higher increments to reflect longer periods of service. JLCs will no longer set Sunday premium rates or any other conditions of employment covered by universal standards provided for in existing legislation, but the special position of Sunday working will still be recognised. Companies will be able to derogate from employment regulation orders, EROs, in case of financial difficulty. In setting rates, JLCs will have to take into account factors such as unemployment rates, competitiveness and wage trends here and in our major trading partners. Record-keeping requirements for employers in these sectors will be reduced. The constitutionality of EROs will be restored through inclusion of robust principles and policies. The arrangements and critera applying to the registration, variation and cancellation of registered employment agreements will be made more secure, from a constitutional perspective.

The heads of a Bill to give effect to the reform proposals are being prepared by the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. They have been agreed by Government and communicated to the Attorney General, who has agreed to give the highest priority to drafting this legislation. It is the Minister's intention to have a Bill ready to introduce to the Oireachtas at the earliest possible opportunity.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Taoiseach explain why the Tánaiste, rather than himself, announced Government policy on this issue? At the SIPTU conference, the Tánaiste spoke of structured dialogue to be announced in the next month and which would begin with social partners. In the Taoiseach's reply, there was a studied avoidance of any phrase relating to a formal mechanism, which I asked about in Question No. 3, or to a structured dialogue. The Croke Park agreement is at the heart of social partnership, was a product of its dynamic and was an important part of securing some of the substantial agreements relating to the public finances in the last number of years. While facilitating social partners and articulating their views forcibly, either in meetings or on the streets, it generated a consensus around the necessity to take very strong decisions regarding the public finances and in achieving progress on that front.

The Taoiseach says he is not returning to social partnership in any formal sense. He needs to be very clear about that. He used the phrase, "We will not be returning to the social partnership model as applied previously" but we do not know what that means. How can hard negotiations or any sequel to the Croke Park agreement, in terms of its efficacy in the overall debate on the public finances, begin? On the joint labour committees, a Bill published by Fianna Fáil was debated in this House prior to the summer recess. Sinn Féin also published a Bill on the matter and the Government is soon to publish a Bill on it.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Questions, please.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach, in his remarks today, has officially confirmed the Labour Party's acquiescence to a worsening of the conditions for the lower paid.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Deputy did not hear me clearly. I said we were not returning to the social partnership module which previously existed, which was wasteful from the perspective of time and so on. Communication lines between the Government and those previously involved in social partnership, including employers, trade unions and other groups, are open. I explained that to all of them individually and again when we met with the National Economic and Social Forum, NESC.

The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and I met with the Croke Park Implementation Body last June, at which time we pointed out the necessity to implement the conditions of Croke Park as fully and expeditiously as possible in order that the conditions signed on for in respect of the troika could be adhered to. The Tánaiste made his remarks last week in the context of an address to SIPTU. I spoke to him prior to the SIPTU conference and agreed the process of dialogue and communication with those who were previously members of the social partnership. There is nothing mysterious about that. The Tánaiste took the opportunity of addressing the delegates at the SIPTU conference to spell out that the lines of communication would be open to them and others who were previously involved in the social partnership programme, which was good, relevant and opportune. As is required, that communication facility is available to them.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can I-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will come back to the Deputy. I call Deputy Higgins.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Taoiseach stated that trade union leaders are available for consultation. Is it not the case that they are available to be dictated to?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are on Question Time and the Deputy must ask questions.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Unfortunately, they are allowing themselves to be dictated to at great cost to their members who suffer the consequences of the austerity being imposed by Government.

How can the Taoiseach say the Government is open to real dialogue with the trade union movement when, for example, members of the INMO and SIPTU were forced to take strike action against grotesque overcrowding and danger to patients at the Mid-Western Regional Hospital, Limerick? These nurses did so not for an advancement in wages but in the interests of safe working practices. Does the Taoiseach see a contradiction between the fine platitudes he has just spoken and the reality that trade union members, who are trying to provide services, are facing on the ground as a result of Government policies?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not deal in dictatorship. Government will work with the different groups on the decisions it will have to make in the interests of our country and people.

Nurses at the Mid-Western Regional Hospital, Limerick did not go on strike: they protested vehemently at overcrowding. The Deputy will be aware that this situation has been allowed to fester in a number of areas for quite some time. The special delivery unit established by the Minister for Health has visited a number of hospitals throughout the country to examine efficiency of management and competency to deal with situations such as this. I am aware that nurses will visit the Dáil tomorrow and intend to hand in a letter to the Minister for Health. I do not accept the Deputy's assertion that the lines of communication between Government and trade unions and workers and Government are not open. This is not a case of Government being closed off in some room. We are facing the reality of a range of very challenging problems with which we intend to deal and to do so in as fair a manner as is possible in the interests of everyone.

In response to the questions from Deputies Martin, Adams and Higgins, the communication avenues to this Government are open to those who are members of trade unions and workers who are feeling the pinch, as they are to employers, business people and other social groups. That will continue to be the case. As decisions are made by Government, people will be consulted and fully informed.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Chuir mé dhá cheist ar an Taoiseach ach ní bhfuair mé ach freagra amháin. Perhaps the answer to that question will give a sense of the quality of the dialogue with the trade union leaders. Did the Taoiseach discuss the JLC issue with the trade union leaders when he met them?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I pointed out that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation was doing as required to do, namely, to consult in respect of the drafting of legislation arising from the court judgment. I have outlined for Deputy Adams the issues that will be pertinent to that legislation, in respect of which the heads of Bill have been approved by Government. We are awaiting presentation of the final Bill by the Minister and hope it can be brought before the House as quickly as possible.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That was not my question.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The answer to the Deputy's question is, "Yes, it was discussed". The requirement and responsibility of the Minister to consult about this with the groups was met. The legislation will be brought before the House as quickly as possible.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would appreciate some clarity on what will happen in terms of the relationship between the social partners and Government. The Tánaiste spoke about structured dialogue but the Taoiseach has avoided any reference to structured dialogue. Perhaps the Taoiseach will clarify what is meant by "structured dialogue" with the social partners.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It is dialogue that is structured.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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One expects that the communication channels will remain open. No one is suggesting they should ever be closed. There is no big deal in communication avenues or channels between Government and the social partners being open. What will be the process of engagement, if there is to be any between the social partners and Government? The Taoiseach needs to let us know that one way or the other.

The Taoiseach referenced in his earlier reply that the Tánaiste's comments were made in the context of his address to SIPTU. Was it a sop to SIPTU or a sop to the Tánaiste? One gets the impression that the Fine Gael side of this Government wants nothing more to do with social partnership. The Labour Party has a more nuanced view in this regard, which is the reason for all this verbiage and lack of clarity in regard to the nature of the relationship or how the process of engagement is to be structured.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There is nothing like the new politics.

4:00 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is no lack of clarity about this. The Tánaiste, when speaking at the SIPTU conference, outlined the nature of the dialogue that will take place. Commencing in November, the Government will invite lead social partner organisations to bilateral meetings. That is clear. These meetings will involve senior Government Ministers, including the Tánaiste other Ministers and myself. Our intention is that these meetings will take place on a regular and period basis, focusing on matters of current concern. For instance, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform will lead the discussions on public sector management and implementation of the Croke Park Agreement while the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation will lead on issues to do with employment regulation. That, too, is clear.

In addition, to develop a strong role for the social partners in finding solutions to common problems, we will re-engage the National Economic and Social Council. I, as Taoiseach, and the Tánaiste will undertake to attend a plenary session of the council each year. We do not seek consensus for its own sake. We must learn from past failures of social partnership, including the need to respect the role of the Oireachtas and the role of Government. Given the scale of our difficulties and the challenges facing our country, we must work together in the interests of the country and our people. That is the structure of the process in which we will engage.

It could not be clearer. I will be happy to debate any issues that emerge during the bilateral meetings and the outcomes of the plenary session of the National Economic and Social Council, NESC.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Taoiseach agree there have always been bilateral discussions between Ministers, trade unions and employers?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, and we intend to continue that process.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Attending a plenary session of NESC is hardly earth-shattering.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not meant to be earth-shattering. However, we are not going to waste time in the fashion done before in which there were endless meetings with nothing coming out of them. In these cases, there will be bilateral meetings with fixed and focused agendas. The dialogue between the social groups, myself, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and lead Ministers will deal with current issues that are important.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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All will be in safe hands.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have no doubt of that.

Photo of John PerryJohn Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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There will be no verbiage anyway.