Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Question 11: To ask the Minister for Education and Skills his views on the remarks made recently by the Provost of Trinity University, who said that the quality of Irish higher education faced a speedy decline unless the funding crisis is addressed by introducing fees for those who can afford to pay. [25116/11]

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The reality of the economic situation and the public expenditure corrections which must be made present challenges to the higher education sector. Future demand for participation growth must be reconciled with limitations on public resources and a need to protect and enhance core quality. The nature of these difficult trade-offs is described in the national strategy for higher education to 2030 which also identifies the need for more detailed analysis. I have asked the Higher Education Authority to undertake further work on the sustainability of the existing funding framework and the intention in this regard is to assess the inter-relationships and tensions between three parameters, namely, growth in student numbers, funding constraints and quality. The work to which I refer will inform consideration by the Government of policy options in respect of the future funding of the sector. I am anxious to ensure any new funding framework will not impact on access for students.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Is Question No. 14 being taken with Question No. 11.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I listened to the remarks made by the Provost of Trinity College. He referred to the cuts made and stated we had to give serious consideration to the matter. Are the cuts creating these conditions, as suggested in the Minister's reply? Trinity College has fallen 13 places to 65th in the rankings and University College Dublin has fallen 20 places to 134th. Did that happen as a result of the impact these cuts are having on third level education in this country? If so, it is a serious wake-up call for the Government. If we are serious about producing well-qualified graduates, our universities must be fit for purpose. If funding is the problem, we need to be told.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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These index measurements are being looked at internationally as education becomes a more globalised phenomenon. The further people are from an educational institution like a university, the more likely they are to look at an index or a guidebook when considering that institution, just as they do with all other products and services. There are a number of determining factors in the QS rankings. I do not have them readily to hand. They are partly based on the ratio of academic staff to students. There is no doubt that the reductions in staff numbers associated with the employment control framework have damaged our performance under that index. The rankings are determined by many other things, including the number of academic papers that members of staff have had published internationally. Such factors might not necessarily relate directly to funding or staff numbers. That is the honest answer. There is cause for concern. The positive side of it, which we should keep in the picture, is that there are approximately 15,000 universities in the world and all of our universities are in the top 500.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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The worry is that it will be seen as a drop in standards. If it is considered that we are going in the wrong direction, it will send the wrong signal to students from abroad who may be thinking of coming to Irish universities. We have to look at the broader issues. I presume one of those issues is funding, but there may be other issues, as the Minister has said. I would like a debate to start on this whole area. The Provost of Trinity College has his own view, as we have said. There might be other reasons for these changes. If there are, we need to start hearing about them from the universities.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister has said that one of his priorities, regardless of the system that is in place, will be to maximise the number of students who reach third level. Does he agree with the Provost of Trinity College, who spoke about the notion that those who can really afford to pay for third level education should have to do so once more? Surely that would be a positive move. Most of us accept that, as research has shown, private second level education has mushroomed since third level fees were abolished. It is obvious that parents are using the money they were going to use for their children's third level education to send them to private secondary schools. The Minister will accept that the more private schools, as opposed to State schools, we have at secondary level, the more social division is created in our society. Does he agree that the notion of reintroducing fees for those who can really pay them is a good one?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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There is a big debate in this area. I belong to a political and ideological tradition that believes that all high earners should pay high levels of income tax at the upper level. That system catches everybody. The money can then be redistributed. That is one way of doing it. Participation in third level education has increased, in terms of overall numbers, since fees were abolished in 1996. The current student services charge is a fee, in effect. The minimum fee for undergraduate students is €2,000. The fee for postgraduate work like a master's degree is €5,000. Students are paying.