Dáil debates
Tuesday, 19 July 2011
Leaders' Questions
4:00 pm
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Two months ago, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation received the Walsh-Duffy report on the operations of the joint labour committees, JLCs. Instead of implementing an expert report which recommended widespread reform, he followed what the Taoiseach described as his personal agenda. The objections of a small number of Labour Party backbenchers were loud but the Minister's handlers assured the media that he win through with his plans to radically wind down protections for low paid workers under the JLC scheme.
When the High Court struck down the legislation for this scheme, it was interesting to see how quickly the Government moved to rule out taking protective action. There is to be no notice of appeal nor will proposals be forthcoming until the autumn or winter. The judgment is not complicated and does not require lengthy study but the Minister appears to insist on restoring some of the protection for vulnerable workers only if his personal agenda is accepted. The problem with this approach is that as many as 200,000 people are currently without a wide range of employment protections and many could see major reductions in their pay and conditions before the Government legislates sometime at the end of the year. I assure the Taoiseach it is not a lifestyle choice these workers want to make.
This week my party laid before the House a Bill which would enable the introduction of employment protection orders for 200,000 workers. If the Taoiseach supports it, he can bring other reforms at a later stage but at least low paid workers will have the reassurance of protection in the meantime. Will he agree to support this Bill and protect these workers?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I will not. I am not going to oppose it. The legal advice I received is that it is not adequate. Both Fine Gael and the Labour Party agree that the JLC system should be reformed. The decision of the High Court in striking down and declaring unconstitutional the situation that existed meant that it became unconstitutional from the moment the details of the judgment were announced by the judge. That has required real analysis by the Government.
Emergency legislation was commented upon but the position is that the Minister for Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation will bring back to Cabinet a comprehensive response to the judicial decision in respect of the joint labour committees and employment regulation order system being unconstitutional. This affects a considerable number of people with existing employment protection under contracts of employment. It is not a case of coming back in the winter, as mentioned by the Deputy, but rather priority being accorded to this response, which must be adequate, comprehensive and dealt with as early as possible in the autumn session by the Minister for Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is an immediate emerging threat to the pay and conditions of more than 200,000 people. Whether there will be reform is not at issue, as every group, including trade unions, supports the need for a reformed system. What is at issue is why the Government is refusing to offer any protection or take any steps to guard the rights of workers in the coming months.
The relevant committee of the House has no other legislation to deal with now and could easily take up the Bill. The Government could amend our Bill if it did not agree with the entirety of our approach. This could be done quickly, allowing a definite date in September when employment protection orders could be introduced.
The Taoiseach said he would not oppose this Bill but what does that mean? Does it mean he will accept the Bill into a committee of this House for deliberation? If the Taoiseach is comfortable talking the talk about restoring this protection, why will he not walk the walk and agree to support the legislation which will achieve that aim? Will he clarify what he means when he states he will not "oppose" the measure and does this mean the Bill will go through the House and be enacted? Will it go to the committee? What is the status of the Government's response to this party's legislation?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I saw the Deputy on the plinth last week claiming credit for the troika issue here.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach should deal with this issue.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I accept the principle of the Deputy's actions but my advice is that the Bill as proposed is not sufficiently robust to deal with the matter. The Government sought advice arising from the decision of the court about the possibility of introducing short-term legislation, with the advice being that this would not be sufficient. The answer is that we will not oppose Deputy O'Dea's Bill and we support the principle enshrined in it. The Bill proposed for Private Members' time is not sufficiently robust to deal with the consequences of the constitutional write-down.
Barry CowenEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister will come back to the Government early in the autumn session - not the winter - with a considered overall Government response to this. We share the concerns of people and the 200,000 affected people have protection under existing contracts. We do not oppose the Deputy's Bill because the principle is fine. The Bill is not sufficiently robust and it will take considerable analysis to get this right. The Deputy is free to move his Bill and have it debated and we will not oppose it. On behalf of the Government, the Minister will introduce a comprehensive response to the judicial decision early in the next session.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Government vote for it?
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Comments by the Minister for Social Protection accusing people of making a lifestyle choice by going on the dole were disgraceful.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It smacks of the conservatism of Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s. Does the Taoiseach believe that almost 500,000 people on the dole have made a lifestyle choice?
Derek NolanGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Have the people on trolleys, those who are emigrating, the low paid and people without accident and emergency services made that choice? Are the lifestyle choices of our people being made by the Government? It has a choice between giving billions of euros to toxic banks and putting it into job creation or public services. It has made a lifestyle choice to put this money into bad banks. When it looks to introduce universal social charges, water charges, property taxes and other cuts that are on the way, the Government makes that lifestyle choice. Does the Taoiseach agree that the Minister's remarks were entirely inappropriate and should be withdrawn?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The answer to unemployment is employment, job creation and work, which is the focus of this Government. There should be no undue pressures on employment and work, even within the constraints of the loan fund repayment, and we must bring about a stimulus of confidence within our economy. That is what the Government has done in its recent decisions.
As I stated to the Deputy last week, any small business in County Louth - a small shop in Drogheda or Dundalk - losing money week after week will not stay in business unless something happens. It is a similar position with the country, as there is an €18 billion to €20 billion deficit that must be dealt with. The Government was not elected to leave matters as they are with a mandate to sort out these problems. Central to those priorities is the creation of work and employment. That is why on a series of parallel fronts, including the bank issue, Europe, employment and the budgetary deficit, we must examine options in a way that can restore our country's economic independence and sovereignty. It is not an easy challenge.
Within those constraints, the Deputy can take it that the focus of the Government will be to continue to bring about a position where employment can be created. That is the solution to all employment matters. It will give an opportunity for people to get on the ladder to choose different options, such as re-training, upskilling or new opportunities. This will come about when people again have confidence in business, with banks giving credit, and life and career opportunities can best be chosen by people, and young people in particular.
We do not support a position where unemployment remains at its current level. We do not want to see it continue.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Why is the Minister insulting these people?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We must make decisions to deal with the issue. The policies being pursued by Deputies Adams and Boyd Barrett would make the problem much worse.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has no answer.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked the Taoiseach about the inappropriateness of the Minister's remarks but he did not answer. I recognise that the Taoiseach has a mandate but he also had a manifesto. Does he remember the five-point plan?
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Let me remind the Taoiseach. It states:
Our five-point plan is like a five-pointed star. It gives clarity, light and direction to what will be a difficult journey to a better future ahead.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The star of Bethlehem.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could we have clarity, light and direction?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The wise men.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach make a lifestyle choice not to pour billions of euros into toxic banks? Will he assure the Dáil that those on social welfare or on low pay will not have benefits or pay cut further? Will he ask the Minister for Social Protection not to demonise those she is supposed to protect?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should understand that in so far as it is possible, the opportunities for people here to have gainful employment and to carve out careers should be achieved. I would like to believe that we can rectify the problems of our country by meeting the challenges lying ahead and that this will in time provide an opportunity of return for those who had to leave our country. I come from a part of the country where involuntary emigration was endemic. I understand it. I do not want a flood of the most talented people we have to continue to leave because there are no opportunities for them here. Those opportunities will not be here to the extent we want unless we change the structure of how things have been. On the other hand, many opportunities are being created here now. Companies are being established by bright and energetic young people who see the future with enormous excitement and enthusiasm. They see huge potential and huge opportunities in this country. It is part of the discourse of normal politics. I share everyone's concern about the requirement on the Government to do its utmost in the interests of ensuring people have a chance to live and work here if that is what they want to do. I assure the House that the Government's focus is on that. We cannot implement our entire programme in the first 100 days. The Deputy quoted from Fine Gael's five-point plan. I am glad it is up in his office.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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It was in the fiction section.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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It was written by Hans Christian Andersen.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Members should now refer to the position that was agreed by Fine Gael and the Labour Party, as set out in the programme for Government.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Where is the Labour Party?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They were very late coming in today.
Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Where are the rest of the Fianna Fáil Deputies who used to sit beside Deputy Martin?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We are focused on implementing the programme for Government over the next five years. We genuinely believe it has the potential and the capacity to turn around the fortunes of this country and its people. Sinn Féin can draw up a three-point plan or a five-point plan ahead of the next general election, which is four and a half years away.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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There is a man overboard already.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I can quote from Sinn Féin's plan if Deputies wish.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should act on our plan.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps I will quote from the section of Sinn Féin's banking policy that relates to the IMF bailout.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Quote away.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach can do so on another day.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Sinn Féin said that it "would not draw down this loan from the IMF/EU" and that "we don't need these funds".
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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They would have had to provide for €18 billion in cuts.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They are living in a land of fantasy and unreality.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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What about those who said they would draw it down and not pay it back?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Sinn Féin should produce its plans. Our plan is the five-point plan and the Labour plan. It is now the programme for Government. That is what we are focusing on and implementing. Job opportunities are central to that.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Fine Gael plan is the Fianna Fáil plan.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We want to provide work and employment for our people.
Ray ButlerSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps the comedians will go to the Gaiety Theatre and let Deputy Ross speak.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The ringmaster is on his way.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach is going to Brussels on Thursday for possibly the most important summit of his career. It could be the most important summit in the history of Ireland's relationship with the EU. Of course he will go there with the goodwill of everyone in this House. He will carry a very heavy burden of debt on his back as he goes. The news that drips to us daily indicates that the debt will be almost impossible to pay off. The Government's spin is that we are on track to pay back that debt. When the Taoiseach goes to Brussels, he must be mindful of the fact that the markets are clearly indicating we will not be able to pay back that debt. I think Irish two-year bonds were at 23% yesterday. It is clear that the markets believe the Government is in denial when it says it will pay back that debt. The Taoiseach will face a choice when historic decisions are being made at Thursday's important summit. He will have to decide whether to face the issue of default or to be in denial about it. It is a question of denial or default for this Government.
I ask the Government to consider taking up the default gauntlet, in a structured way if necessary. It should say that default is not a negative. Default is a positive because the markets believe it is inevitable. Will the Taoiseach make the point that default will lead to stronger banks? If the debt is written off in a structured way, in keeping and in tandem with other nations, that default will be recognised by the bond markets as a positive and they will be able to start lending to us again. Will the Taoiseach not consider taking that position? The Taoiseach should not come back to us on Friday-----
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will leave him come home anyway.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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-----pleading again that he has succeeded with the interest rates, with a bigger fund and with extended maturities. He should come back with a fundamental change in our relationship with Europe and with a structured and beneficial default. The final point I would like to make is-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are way over time.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It is an important point. If the Taoiseach comes back with important results, the Dáil should have an opportunity to meet next week or on Friday to allow the Taoiseach to explain what happened at the summit and answer questions on the matter.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure whether Deputy Ross has asked me to stay away entirely.
Mattie McGrathEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know he would not want that to happen.
Willie O'DeaEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is clear that this important meeting has been called by President Van Rompuy to deal with the contagion that has been spreading as a consequence of the situation that has emerged, particularly in Greece. I note Chancellor Merkel's statement today to the effect that those who want to take political responsibility - the Government wants to do that and is taking it seriously - should know that a single spectacular step will not be taken. Instead, there will have to be a controlled and composed process of gradual steps and measures. It is perfectly obvious to everyone that the markets do not have confidence in a number of countries. Obviously, Ireland is not in the marketplace. We are meeting our requirements. That has been endorsed by the troika. Deputy Martin has accepted credit for that. Our approach has had the approval of the IMF, the European Commission, the European Parliament, Commissioner Rehn and a number of European Governments.
As I said on Question Time earlier, it is fair to say there are many ongoing discussions about the situation that will emerge on Thursday. I would like to think the eurozone leaders will make a series of decisions that will start to restore the markets' confidence in a number of countries. The German Chancellor has pointed out that an overall decision, which would sort this out for once and for all, will not be taken on Thursday. We need to decide on a series of gradual steps and measures to be implemented. I will try to ensure it is a priority that the eurozone leaders are required to demonstrate that countries which are in difficulty will receive support from the fund. The issues that have been put on the table by Ireland in recent months - flexibility, overall pricing and interest rates - can be considered in that context. I hope decisions can be made on those issues, in part if not in full, on Friday. That would be a measure of demonstration to the markets that the eurozone countries are confident that the countries which are in difficulty can make their way forward.
As Deputy Ross knows, it might not be possible to bring about a series of decisions that would end all the anxiety, concern and contagion and point the way for Greece or any other country to make it way forward. Although we are not in the markets, we are meeting all our requirements. I hope the process of preparing for Thursday's meeting, which is in train, will lead to a controlled and composed process of gradual steps and measures, as Chancellor Merkel has said. I hope a number of such steps and measures can be put in place to demonstrate that the eurozone and the EU have confidence in their way of doing business and lead to confidence being restored by the markets in countries within the eurozone, one of which is Ireland.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It sounds as if the words the Taoiseach has just read for Ms Merkel are the recipe for another postponement and a monumental fudge, which is the last thing Ireland needs. I ask that when the Taoiseach goes there he does not necessarily bow to the wishes of Ms Merkel, but puts the interests of Ireland first-----
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach explained.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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-----does not accept simply piecemeal measures as this seems to suggests and takes note of the fact that the market reaction to this sort of a postponement may not be favourable.
Above all, maybe the Taoiseach could answer this question, which I asked earlier. When he comes back on Friday or Saturday, will he ensure that the Dáil gets an opportunity next week to discuss what happened at this historic summit?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Hear, hear.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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One of the problems that has led to this situation is precisely what Deputy Ross stated here, that countries were only putting their own interest first.
Bernard DurkanEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This country has always stated its priority is its citizens and to deal with its responsibility, but at the same time that it wants to participate in comprehensive discussions about the European situation. Deputy Ross will recall that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, on behalf of the Government, pointed out quite some time ago that the general pricing from this fund is too high and that this situation needed to be dealt with at European level. As Chancellor Merkel has pointed out, there will not be one spectacular step taken on Thursday. There will be, hopefully, a series of processes and measures taken which will lead to that situation.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It sounds like a fudge.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ross might well say that is another fudge.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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There are markets which will say it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My point is that Europe has now got to put in place measures which will show that confidence can be had by the markets in countries as a consequence of the decisions that can be taken by Europe itself, as distinct from private investment or private involvement from that point of view.
Deputy Ross wants the Dáil to continue right through the summer. I remind him there was no break after the Government was formed, after Easter or after St. Patrick's Day. This has been one of the longest sessions of the Dáil directly after an election for many years. Obviously, Members will have an opportunity to discuss these matters, but not by Dáil session because I do not intend to bring it back next week.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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We will not be able to discuss it until September.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There will be opportunity at the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. The committees will be sitting-----
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is extreme Dáil reform.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Workers only get two weeks off in the summer.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and Deputy Ross will have his opportunity, as will Deputy Boyd Barrett-----
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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We all are around next week.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----to attend at the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform-----
Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform is not sitting next week on this issue.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----to give vent to Deputy Ross's suggestions which in most cases are constructive-----
Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Bring the lorry in and leave it outside.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Has the Deputy turned up?
(Interruptions).
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Labour Party on turn-ups.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----but not to take in any seriousness what I hear coming from Deputy Boyd Barrett.