Dáil debates

Thursday, 23 June 2011

Other Questions

Criminal Investigations

5:00 pm

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Question 6: To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the position regarding the status of the investigation into Anglo Irish Bank; his views on the recent remarks by the Director of Public Prosecutions on the case and in view of the slow pace of the investigation if he will establish an interagency unit to complete the investigation. [16790/11]

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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One of my top priorities is that allegations of white collar crime are fully investigated and the perpetrators of such crime are made amenable for their crimes. I am informed by the Garda authorities that, following the submission by the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation of two substantial investigation files to the Director of Public Prosecutions last December, a supplementary investigation file was submitted last month. It has been agreed between the DPP, An Garda Síochána and the Director of Corporate Enforcement that additional evidence would continue to be forwarded in such modular form, rather than on completion of the entire investigation, so that consideration by the DPP could begin even as investigation continued, with a view to speeding up the final decision. The files submitted are under consideration by the DPP.

The investigation by An Garda Síochána and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE, is making progress in respect of these two investigations and also of other complaints received of alleged malpractice at Anglo Irish Bank. There is extremely close co-operation between An Garda Síochána and the ODCE in this investigation. Ten members of An Garda Síochána are currently on secondment to the ODCE. In the circumstances, and given the advanced stage of the investigations, it would be fanciful to suggest, as the Deputy does, that the establishment of some new unit at this late stage would help matters.

I have expressed, both before and since my appointment as Minister, my unhappiness with the protracted nature of the investigations. I repeat that this is not a criticism of the persons carrying out the investigations. There is no doubt that the complexities of the matters being investigated create tough challenges for investigators and prosecutors.

It was in light of my concerns that, on taking office, I gave priority to the introduction of the Criminal Justice Bill 2011, which is currently before the House. It is my intention that the Bill's provisions will speed up investigations and prosecutions in this area - both future investigations and those currently under way - by improving a number of important procedural matters and strengthening Garda investigative powers. I have to say frankly it is a great pity that legislative action of this kind was not taken at a much earlier stage of the investigation.

I note that with reference to this issue, the DPP in his speech stated:

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the decision of the Minister for Justice and Equality to introduce a new Criminal Justice Bill in the Oireachtas. Until now it has been a surprising omission in Irish law that potential witnesses cannot be compelled to cooperate with an investigation, even where they themselves are not suspected of or accused of any wrongdoing. In this regard the power of an Irish criminal investigator is considerably weaker than that of a tribunal of enquiry. The new legislation will plug this gap.

I am aware of the recent remarks made by the DPP, who is, of course, independent in the performance of his duties. As the director said, we have to refrain from any comment which could prejudice any case which might be brought. I note that in the context of the current investigation, the director indicated in the statement I quoted above that the passage of the Criminal Justice Bill will be of substantial assistance. I thank Members of the Opposition for their co-operation in the manner in which they have dealt with the Bill so far.

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The proposal in regard to the establishment of an inter-agency unit to progress the investigation is not mine, it is the Minister's own, from a speech he gave on a Private Members' motion in 2009. At that stage, he suggested this would be a way to proceed.

The sharing of files and the submission of files to the DPP has been under way for some time. My concern in tabling this question was that, while I understand the DPP is independent, the DPP said that some witnesses have yet to be interviewed.

The Minister's remarks on the paucity of legislation are fair enough. However, in making those remarks, he then praises his publication of the Criminal Justice Bill, which was prepared by the then Minister, Mr. Dermot Ahern, before Deputy Shatter came into office. While we will certainly facilitate its passage, I have certain questions. How much of that Bill will be retrospective? In asking the Minister to apply his legal mind to this, is there a danger that cases we may bring, or charges that may be brought under the provisions of the new Bill, will be ruled out of order by the authorities in the context of the investigation, thus further delaying it? The Minister said on 12 March, two days after coming into office, that he was seeking a report from various authorities in this regard. Has he made any judgment call, from considering that report, as to when we will be in a position to begin prosecutions?

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is interesting that I keep hearing the refrain that this is legislation that the former justice Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern had prepared. To be fair to him, he commenced the process as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform but the Bill was by no means complete or in adequate form when I became Minister. Substantial work had to be undertaken both within the Department of Justice and Equality and by the Attorney General's office to bring the legislation to a point where it could be published and debated in this House.

In that context, I have no major interest in who is responsible for the Bill. Ultimately, the important issue is that the Bill be enacted, for the very reason to which the Deputy referred. Although, as Minister, I cannot have direct conversation with the DPP about this, I assume the reason some witnesses have not been interviewed is because they are witnesses, not people suspected of being engaged in offences. Our current law is such that unless people who are witnesses volunteer to give information to An Garda Síochána, there is no mechanism available to require them to discuss issues.

This legislation will do what the DPP says he requires it to do in the very public speech he delivered, from which I quoted an extract. It would provide for the first time a mechanism whereby people can be required to assist the Garda with inquiries in matters of serious white collar crime because they are witnesses who have something of value to provide by way of documentary or oral assistance, or by way of access to material maintained by way of a computer process. It is of crucial importance in this regard.

What I said in 2009 was extremely prescient. I was concerned that this area was not being given adequate attention by the Government. We are now two years further on and the investigation has not been able to be completed. We have taken the action necessary to put the required legislation in place.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind Deputies there is six minutes for each ordinary question - two minutes for the Minister to reply, four minutes for supplementary questions and a maximum of one minute for a further supplementary and a reply. We have run out of time for this question so I must move on to Question No. 7. I will stick to the time limits.