Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Question 34: To ask the Minister for Social Protection the costs involved in funding Pobal per annum; the cost of Pobal's administrative services since its establishment and if the work being sub-contracted out to Pobal could be withdrawn and brought back into the public services, thereby saving considerable amounts of money. [15020/11]

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Pobal delivers a range of publicly and EU-funded programmes on behalf of a number of Departments. My reply concerns services delivered by Pobal in respect of the rural social scheme and the community services programme that transferred to the Department of Social Protection last September following the reconfiguration of Government functions announced in March 2010. Pobal operates under the aegis of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, which has an oversight and co-ordination role in respect of the company. Members of the board of Pobal are appointed by the Government from nominations provided by the social partners and other stakeholders. The company is subject to audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General and its operations are covered by the Freedom of Information and Ethics in Public Offices Acts.

The fees paid to Pobal in respect of work undertaken are matters for each individual Department. I have provided a table for the Deputy of the fees paid in respect of the rural social scheme since it commenced in 2004 and for the community services programme since it commenced operations in 2006. Both programmes fell under the former Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and latterly, the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs prior to the transfer to the Department of Social Protection.

The services provides to the Department of Social Protection relate to payroll and some related functions on the rural social scheme and Tús. Around 2,600 participants and 130 supervisors are paid weekly by Pobal on the rural social scheme. Pobal has begun to make weekly payroll payments in respect of Tús, the new community work placement initiative which is currently being rolled-out nationally. Some 5,000 weekly payments are planned for Tús when it is fully operational.

The services provided on the community services programme are significantly different than the former and encompass application management, appraisal and assessment, contract maintenance, distribution and management of payments by instalments to service providers, monitoring of progress, various support to beneficiaries, risk audit, financial verification, control and inspections and advice on service development to each of the 445 service providers currently in contract to the programme. The Minister of the day approves all applications for funding from the community services programme following detailed assessment and recommendation by Pobal.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

While it is possible that the services provided by Pobal could be provided internally by my Department or other Departments, it is unlikely that significant savings would arise given that staff resources would need to be redeployed, systems would require development and the necessary expertise in providing advice to the sectors concerned may not be readily available.

Additionally, because Pobal delivers funding on behalf of a number of Departments involved in supporting services in the not-for-profit, community and voluntary sectors, the company is in a unique position to bring considerable value-added because of its comprehensive knowledge of the sectors. The central administration and integration of services offered by the company across the various programmes and the fact that the same staff work on a number of programmes are considerable strengths which would not be easily replicated if Departments separately implemented programmes.

Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for her response. Does the Minister consider Pobal an extra layer of bureaucracy? While I have no problem with the services it provides, it is a private company providing the service, albeit a charity. Charities incur heavy wageroll costs. In 2008 Pobal's salary costs were €14.6 million, which amounts to €55,000 on average for each of the 266 employees. Does the Minister believe this is another quango, of which we have one for every 4,000 people? Should it be brought within the remit of the Departments? Grants and wages for the rural social scheme are being delayed because of four levels of administration.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for his question and I would be happy to hear from him in detail about the problems or delays he has encountered in respect of payment of participants. The services provided by Pobal could be provided by my Department or other Departments but it is unlikely to result in significant savings. Staff resources would need to be deployed, systems would need development and the expertise in providing advice to the sectors concerned may not be readily available.

There have been further changes to Pobal since the Government took office. It is now under the aegis of the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government. I will consider what the Deputy said. Pobal is a service provider for the rural social scheme and the community services programme. If the provider was to be replaced, we would have to examine the implications for the resources of my Department. There is an extraordinary call on the services of the Department and we have recently taken on additional work, including insolvency and redundancy payments. I am reluctant to commit to extra services unless we carry out a full evaluation.

Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The money will be spent anyway, whether we pay Pobal or new staff are allocated in the Minister's Department. Does the Minister consider that it would add to the expertise of the people working in her Department if this matter was examined over time?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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A number of ICT and computer facilitation upgrades are taking place in the Department. If the Deputy outlines his concerns, I will examine them. The Department of Social Protection is responsible for paying more than 1 million people some kind of payment or benefit. The Department took on redundancy and insolvency payments in order to reduce the backlog when those payments were managed by the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. That was an extra job taken on by my Department. I will consider what the Deputy said.