Dáil debates
Wednesday, 15 June 2011
Leaders' Questions
10:30 am
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As the Taoiseach knows, in February last, all of our European partners agreed to change our financial support package to make it more sustainable. This was officially confirmed at the eurozone summit that the Taoiseach attended just over three months ago. Since then there has been no progress, and things have actually been going backwards. The euro crisis is getting worse by the week. In our case, the only thing that has changed is that we have given up looking for better terms on all the funds.
On Monday, senior sources in the office of President Sarkozy expressed amazement that the Taoiseach has yet to go to Paris to discuss the interest rate. Incredibly, the Taoiseach's own office refused to confirm that he had even spoken to President Sarkozy on the phone. Since the election, he has held a bilateral meeting with only one European leader involved in our funding package, the UK Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron; yet he refused even to ask him about reducing the interest rate. What has happened to the pledge the Taoiseach made days before the election to use his contacts in Europe to arrange a great rush of meetings with European leaders? Finance Ministers have failed to reach agreement on our interest rate, and it is not even on the agenda for Sunday's emergency meeting. Will the Taoiseach end his hands-off policy and arrange to meet face-to-face the leaders who are standing in the way of delivering the better terms everyone agrees are required?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It seems that what Deputy Martin wants to do is to increase the level of what was deemed to be a Gallic spat to an all-out war. Things have changed since last February. The first thing that happened was that the Government had a look at the agreement that was reached by the Deputy's own Government and the troika, and set about renegotiating elements of it within the constraints of the overall deal in order to improve the lot of Ireland by obtaining agreement on the reversal of the cut in the minimum wage and obtaining approval for a limited jobs initiative and for the comprehensive spending analysis that is currently under way. That is very different from what applied prior to February of this year. The result of those negotiations has been confirmation from the troika itself, the IMF, Olli Rehn, Christine Lagarde and a whole range of others of Ireland's case for a reduction of interest, which was approved in principle at the meeting of the heads of Government and devolved to the Ministers for finance, and also confirmation that Ireland is now on the right track.
What I discovered in the context of other things was that the relationship of this country with our European partners was nothing short of disgraceful. The reason for that-----
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach should back that up.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----is that Ministers in the last Government did not attend meetings they were supposed to attend-----
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Who told the Taoiseach that?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and if they did speak, they spoke only on a confined basis about elements of this country and had no contribution to make in the broader context of Europe. The Tánaiste and I, along with every other Minister, have worked hard to restore the reputation of this country.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Where did the Tánaiste do that? Was it Tanzania?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will continue to work at that. This country was always exceptionally highly rated by our European counterparts, but that slipped over a decade of non-attendance and non-participation and an arrogant assumption that this country was on top of the pile and would stay there. We need to rebuild that reputation, and I will be asking the Deputy for his help because he has connections in Europe. He should admit that things are different and that we are now on a different path towards sorting out the problems that this country faces and the legacy that was left to us.
The last time I met President Sarkozy in Brussels, he agreed that we must have a meeting; he said this more than once. We will have a meeting in due course and at the appropriate time.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When all the money is gone.
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin should settle down.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach is accountable for his own promises and for the commitments he made. The assertion he has just made about Ministers in the former Government is a most reprehensible one. It is a low charge that has no substance, and he should withdraw it.
Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Check the record.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The commitment of previous Ministers to Europe, during former Presidencies and over the past 12 months, has been extraordinary across the board.
Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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What about the attendance record at Council meetings?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is the most ridiculous statement I ever heard.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was the Taoiseach who made the commitment to use his contacts and hold meetings with European leaders.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we have a supplementary question, please?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In February, every country agreed to deliver a significant cut in our loan terms, but today we are again being blocked on a much smaller request. The Taoiseach's decision to hand over responsibility for these negotiations was a mistake and should be reversed immediately. Meetings with European leaders should not happen only during election time. We are not talking about a Gallic spat or anything that was over-hyped by the Taoiseach's people. The bottom line is this: a simple meeting or series of meetings with European leaders could do a lot to resolve this issue.
Yesterday, the man whom the Taoiseach was supporting-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----in his campaign for the position of President of the European Central Bank said he had no interest in providing the medium-term funding we are seeking and that inflation is his main concern. At next week's summit, he is due to be handed an eight-year term. Instead of just smiling and nodding his appointment through-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, you are over your time.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----will the Taoiseach commit to talking to him personally about his comments? Mario Draghi is unknown here at the moment, but he will become very well known in his organisation in terms of his policies with regard to Ireland. Before we support him, we should have some indication of where he stands and the degree to which he understands the needs and requirements of Ireland and other peripheral countries.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not regard telling the truth as being reprehensible. The fact is that this country was let down by non-attendance and non-participation-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and a very limited contribution from the last Government in particular. Nor do I agree with the Deputy that it was a mistake to devolve responsibility for continued negotiation on the principle of an interest rate reduction to the finance Ministers. I repeat that the reason the Heads of Government made that decision was that the stress tests on the Irish banks were not complete. As leader after leader has said, we cannot make a decision in the absence of the figures, and the figures were not known at that stage. That is why the authority was devolved to the Ministers for finance. As Deputies know, there is a meeting of ECOFIN on Sunday and Monday, and this issue will arise in those discussions. In addition, I will meet with the President of the European Council, Mr. Van Rompuy, here on Friday to discuss a range of issues.
With regard to the Deputy's comment on medium-term funding, it would be beneficial for everybody if such funding were made available now. When I spoke to Mr. Trichet by telephone when he was in China about Ireland's position, he stated ECB-guaranteed funding would continue for Ireland, irrespective of a downgrading or not following the publication of the stress tests.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Taoiseach aware the health service is facing its first crisis since he took office? Accident and emergency units are struggling to maintain 24-hour cover and are at risk of closing. Hospitals and hospital wards are facing closure while essential services, such as maternity and infant schemes, are under threat. Up to 1,600 hospital beds have been closed due to the previous Administration's cutbacks but this Government has not re-opened one of those beds.
One of the main factors in this health crisis is the shortage of junior doctors on whom our public hospitals are dependent. I predict that on 11 July, following the changeover in job rotations, the number of vacant junior doctor posts will come to at least 400. This will be substantially worse than anything seen before. It will have a devastating effect on the provision of front-line services in the health system. Will the Taoiseach accept this prediction? If so, what will he do to rectify this problem?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The overall position of the health system and services leaves much to be desired, particularly in respect of those who cannot get inside the system. I and other public representatives have evidence of the exceptional quality of treatment patients receive once they get into the system. However, I recently had a case of a person who was in hospital for three weeks awaiting an MRI scan, who told me he was taking up a bed that could be used for someone else. That is why the Government has set out a programme to change the nature and structure of the way health services are delivered.
The question about junior doctors is relevant. Obviously, junior doctors make a particular contribution to the quality of health services. The shortage of such doctors will be addressed by the Minister for Health on Friday morning.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with the Taoiseach on the wonderful work done by the health services but, once again, he has avoided the question. There is a crisis which I believe will be unprecedented. I ask that all Deputies note what I say. Our public hospitals, particularly our smaller regional ones, are dependent on junior doctors. If no intervention is made between now and 11 July, the chronic shortage of junior doctors will have an effect on emergency trauma services. Paediatrics will be under so much pressure that services will not be maintained. The hospitals affected will include Drogheda, Portlaoise, Roscommon, Cavan, Beaumont, Castlebar, Limerick, Letterkenny, Cork's South Infirmary, Portiuncula-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are meant to be asking questions.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----Mid-western Regional Hospital and Waterford. The Taoiseach needs to take immediate action to assess the impact on services on 11 July. Will he undertake to make a statement to the House on the matter after he has examined this severe crisis?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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For years the Vote for the Department of Health went through the House in the normal way. By July or August every year, health boards and the Health Service Executive ran out of money for some services. Consequently, hospital wards were closed, expensive medical equipment lay idle and trained personnel did not have an opportunity to give of their best. That is why the Minister for Health has set out to change the direction, nature and structure of the way health services are delivered. In the past three weeks, he had to investigate why €100 million in funding for a detailed purpose went in a different direction.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We still do not have an answer to what happened in that particular case.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We can have more than one debate on the health services. The Minister for Health will not be afraid to spell out the truth and nature of the difficulties.
Having looked at how the Government must deal with these problems, I have decided to appoint another Cabinet sub-committee to deal specifically with health issues.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We will not be able to ask any questions then.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is central to the entire problem.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Beginning in January 2014, approximately 11,000 workers will reach 65 years of age and should be going on to the State contributory pension. Today, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, intends to ram a Bill through the Dáil which will mean these workers will not get a cent at 65 but will have to work another full year. The Minister also intends to ram through an increase in the age for receipt of the State pension to 67 years in 2021 and thence up to 68 years. Has the Taoiseach any appreciation of how socially regressive these measures are? Has he any appreciation of how heartless these Government proposals are?
It will hit hardest the lowest paid workers who have paid their taxes and worked all their lives. It will hit hardest the men and women who work in the most difficult employment areas. How would the Taoiseach like to be forced to work on a construction site until he was 70 years of age? I note the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, finds that amusing. I do not think people out there will find it so when they discover what is in store for them.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can I have the Deputy's question, please?
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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How would the Taoiseach like an aunt or another female relative to be forced to work in industrial cleaning until they were almost 70 years? This is nothing more than a further attack on working people in the Taoiseach's mission, along with the EU-ECB-IMF, to salvage the speculators in Europe from their disastrous debts in Irish property.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a question?
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Is the Taoiseach aware that France, Spain and other countries had major national debates on raising the state pension age? In Ireland, however, the media seems to have gone to sleep.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is out of time.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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No worker knows what is coming. In view of the democratic right of people to have a major debate on this crucial change in social policy, will he withdraw these rotten measures in the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2011 to allow for a national debate on them?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I will not withdraw this Bill.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Social Welfare and Pensions Bill also gives effect to the reversal of the cut in the minimum wage which, as Deputy Joe Higgins well knows, affected lower paid workers and who would have felt a larger brunt of the difficulties this country faces.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Answer the question and stop giving red herrings.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does Deputy Joe Higgins wish to ask a supplementary question?
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I find it interesting that the Taoiseach, the Government and its backbenchers treat this issue with contempt. It is an issue of primary importance for the tens of thousands who will be affected by it and forced to work in the most difficult circumstances until they are 68 years. More importantly, only in two and a half years time these measures will affect 11,000 workers. This is of the most serious import. Any Deputy who votes for this measure today should be ashamed of themselves.
Simon HarrisSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does Deputy Joe Higgins have a supplementary question?
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is this the mockeyah indignation from Deputy Joe Higgins? I hope he makes the headlines for this.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The very point, Deputy Buttimer, is that there have been no headlines about these measures. The people are not aware of them.
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am glad the Deputy knows my name.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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One could not miss it.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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He already is causing a nuisance in here.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Joe Higgins is over his time. Can we have a supplementary question?
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will the Taoiseach indicate how he dares to call the Ministry in question the Ministry for Social Protection, particularly in view of the fact that a measure which amounts to social aggression will be put through the House today? What is proposed represents an attack on the elderly or those who are growing old.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want the Deputy to understand that the Government does not in any way regard this as treating people with contempt. Each day I deal with people who are experiencing the same challenges as those being encountered by the individuals to whom the Deputy refers. I do not agree with his assertion that members of the media are asleep. I am of the opinion they are very much awake and vigilant, as is their responsibility.
In the context of where we are headed, I obviously want as many people as possible in the Deputy's constituency and all other constituencies to be removed from the live register. These individuals have the right to earn a decent living and to contribute to their pensions in the best way possible in order that the eventuality under discussion will not occur. People have been aware of this matter for some time. The Deputy will recall a time when the pension age was 70. I am not stating we should return to having such a pension age. We have reached agreement on this matter - as people are well aware - and we must resolve the difficulties and challenges the country faces in order that everyone can be guaranteed a decent future. People must be informed well in advance of the increased age limit in respect of pensions.