Dáil debates

Wednesday, 1 June 2011

Ceisteanna - Questions

European Council Meetings

11:00 am

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach his priorities for the next meeting of the European Council; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11457/11]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the briefings he received in advance of the 11 March 2011 meeting of the European Council; and the amendments he tabled to the draft communiqué. [11800/11]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach if he plans to talk to the Greek Prime Minister about issues of common interest in view of the ongoing difficulties facing both our countries in respect of ongoing negotiations with the EU-IMF. [12619/11]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the issues he intends to raise at the next meeting of the European Council; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12840/11]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together. The European Council on 11 March 2011 was called to discuss the unfolding developments in Libya and the southern Mediterranean area. I received the normal briefings prepared by officials for a Taoiseach in advance of a meeting of this kind. At the meeting, there was general discussion around the table, in which I participated, and which, in the normal manner, resulted in some adjustments to the draft conclusions as they were being finalised.

There was also a meeting of the Heads of State and Government of the eurozone on 11 March. I participated in that meeting in a similar fashion. I reported to the House on both meetings on 22 March.

I regularly meet with my EU colleagues, including the Prime Minister of Greece. Our most recent meeting was at the European Council in Brussels at the end of March. Working to defend and advance Ireland's interests is my absolute priority. Building alliances of support is important in that regard. Contacts at all levels, official and political, are frequent and ongoing. While the agenda for the June European Council is not yet finalised, it is expected to discuss economic policy issues, migration and matters relating to Croatia's accession to the Union. It is also expected to endorse a Presidency report on the inclusion of the Roma population in the EU, and to endorse the Council's Conclusions on the launch of the Danube strategy.

In the context of recent events in the southern Mediterranean area, I anticipate that the discussion on migration will include consideration of the current arrangements under the Schengen Agreement for countries that participate and the completion of the common European asylum system. Economic policy issues will include the making of country specific recommendations on foot of proposals made by the Commission. These represent another step in the European semester process and are intended to inform the national budgets that member states will adopt later in 2011.

The appointment of the President of the European Central Bank is also expected to arise. In this regard the ECB and European Parliament are currently being consulted on the appointment of Mr. Mario Draghi to the post.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My question concerns the Taoiseach's priorities for the next meeting and he did not answer that, with respect. The Taoiseach has frequently said that the reduction of the interest rate, which Sinn Féin welcomes, is a priority but he has consistently failed to raise it at meetings where it would be appropriate. Does the Taoiseach expect this reduction to be secured at the next meeting? How much will the reduction save the Irish taxpayer? Is the Taoiseach aware of the release of the live register figures, which is now 14.8%, an increase of 3,000 citizens unemployed since last May? Is that not a priority issue as well? An mbeidh na hábhair seo ar an mbord le haghaidh díospóireachta ag an chéad chruinniú eile den chomhairle?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I set out my priorities and I have made the point that working to defend and advance Ireland's interests is my absolute priority. That means building alliances of support politically. I do not set the agenda for the European Council meeting, although I will contribute to it and I have outlined the general principles surrounding the agenda, which is not yet finally determined.

The question of the conclusion of an interest rate reduction - another European Commissioner has indicated support for it today - is being pursued by the Ministers responsible for finance. The Deputy is also aware that the Heads of Government, myself among them, devolved that authority to the Ministers because at the time of the leaders' meeting, there was no conclusion to the stress tests on the Irish banks. In its absence - there is a requirement for accurate figures if seeking support - the matter was left to the Ministers responsible for finance. The Deputy is aware that the matter is still being negotiated. I am also sure the Deputy has heard the reports from other European figures regarding the fairness that should be extended in this matter.

It is realistic to say that this country entered into an IMF-EU bailout deal and the conditions of that have been revised, renegotiated and accepted by the troika, and these are the conditions being met by Ireland. It is unfair to expect that this country should be asked to deal with matters that other countries are not expected to deal with. We have a very clear view on that. I do not expect this to be a matter for discussion at the Heads of Government meeting but if it comes up, I will deal with it.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I did not hear the Taoiseach. Does he expect it to come up?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not expect it to come up on the agenda because it has already been devolved to the Ministers responsible for finance. If it comes up I will be there to deal with it.

I have noted the unemployment figures from the live register, which are too high. Every job lost is a tragedy for somebody and every job gained is a source of enjoyment and happiness. Considering the difference between the live register figures and the real figure of those unemployed, it is very high in this country. The results of the jobs initiative have not kicked in yet but I hope the impact of that focused attention will bring some relief to those figures. Everybody in the Chamber and outside is concerned about the live register figure and hopes to decrease it. We must do that by growing our economy and confidence, investing in opportunities for employment, removing red tape and bureaucracy and opening the doors for business to flourish.

That is where our focus remains and why we made decisions relating to the banks, the jobs initiative and why we are looking at the way money was spent and the value obtained for it. We hope to prioritise from September onwards what it is we must do in these circumstances to have fairness in our society.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A question about the March Council meeting has nothing to do with the June meeting, and those should not be grouped with questions about future meetings. The Taoiseach has taken to ignoring questions when more than one is asked so I want to concentrate on No. 2, which relates to the Council meeting of 11 March. The communiqué from 11 March is very important because it sets out the as yet unfulfilled commitment to have more sustainable terms for loans to Ireland and others. Did the Taoiseach table any amendments to that communiqué or did he accept the version available to him when he took office?

For over two and half months there have been constant leaks about this agreement being implemented and yesterday in the House the Taoiseach stated that "we have negotiated down the cost of the deal". We should have elaboration on that because I am not clear on whether the deal has been negotiated in terms of cost at all. A shared urgency was evident on 11 March but to where has that disappeared?

Question No. 4 relates to the next European Council meeting. Does the Taoiseach agree there is now a grave risk that the growing sense of drift and a lack of leadership will bring a new crisis upon us very soon? That is the atmosphere in which comments from an Irish Minister can get carried in reports throughout the world and can have a damaging impact on markets and their perception of Ireland. Will the Taoiseach assure us that our basic position for this Council will be that the delay must stop and the promise of more sustainable support, given at the 11 March Council meeting, can be delivered? Otherwise the issue may get out of control.

I am surprised at the Taoiseach's revelation today that he does not intend to raise these issues at the Council meeting. We have a role in setting the agenda and every member state can contribute to the setting of an agenda for a Council meeting.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Of course.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach stated earlier that he did not set the agenda but we can contribute to it. This has dragged on far too long.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Of course.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The import of the communiqué which emerged from the meeting of 11 March means we should expect at the next Council meeting at least a progress report on delivering the conclusions reached. The contents of that communiqué relating to having a more sustainable programme of supports for countries like Ireland and others were negotiated by the outgoing Government.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I fully understand that any country can contribute to the setting of an agenda for a meeting but my point is that I do not set the full agenda and it is not yet set. The extraordinary meeting of the European Council on 11 March was convened by President Van Rompuy to discuss developments in Libya and the southern Mediterranean region. It was to set the political direction and priorities for future EU action and policy. We agreed on the importance of Europe developing a new and enhanced long-term partnership with the countries of the southern Mediterranean region as they move towards democracy.

The decision was taken at the meeting before that in respect of the pursuit of an interest rate reduction. That is now in the capable hands of the Minister for Finance and his colleagues. If this matter arises at the June meeting, I will certainly deal with it. When Greece was given its interest rate reduction and the Greek Prime Minister sought an extension of a repayment period, which was approved, they were outside the EFSF category bloc. The agreement was that countries in that would be entitled to a reduction. Some of our European colleagues felt that Ireland, in particular, should comply with extra conditions to avail of an interest rate reduction but we are still negotiating the matter. Quite a number of European commentators have now been very forthright in their view about that. If the opportunity arises I will raise the matter at the June meeting and if it comes up I will be very happy to deal with it. As the Deputy knows, the decision was taken that the Ministers responsible for finance would conclude the matter of interest rate reduction negotiations at their level.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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My question related to whether the Taoiseach had detailed discussions with the Greek Prime Minister or senior members of the Greek Government. This is in preference to just happening upon them at European meetings. I asked this because I have spoken to public representatives in Greece recently and the Taoiseach would find it illuminating to do so. Perhaps the Taoiseach has already done this. In order to secure a 1% reduction in the interest rate, Greece has had to agree to sell its ports and harbours, power generation and the water and telecommunications systems. It has also had to close down and merge hospitals, agree to cancel the minimum wage and sell the Popular Bank, which is the Greek equivalent of a credit union. Interestingly, there is a review of that required in the EU and IMF deal.

The country is faced with a position where it is unable to meet the terms of that deal. I was informed by the same public representative that the Greek authorities are now being asked to put up other State assets, including land banks, as collateral against future loans. This looks like the asset stripping of a country and it is required in return for reductions in its loan rate as part of the overall package. It certainly does not look like a bailout.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has the Deputy a question?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It looks like the destruction of a society. Did the Greek Prime Minister or any of the other senior Government officials with whom the Taoiseach spoke inform him this was the price of signing up to EU-IMF deals? This is the future we will face if we continue with this deal instead of doing what the people in the streets of Greece and some of us in this House advocate, namely, walking away from the bankers' debt and telling them to pay for their own losses.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am surprised at the Deputy. He knows that he is speaking about the difference between chalk and cheese because these are two very different situations. I sympathise with the Greek people in their difficulties. I spoke with the Greek Prime Minister in a face-to-face meeting at which he explained the difficulties that his country was beginning to experience and asked for support in respect of his request for an interest rate reduction. The national debt had doubled in a very short period, the banks were looking for €100 billion and his people were beginning to react strongly. However, the Greek situation is very different from that which applies in Ireland's case. We have already met the quarterly review analysis and have received approval in respect of meeting our conditions and commitments. The Deputy should focus on where we stand as a consequence of entering the IMF-EU bailout deal. We want to return to a position where Ireland has full control over its economic sovereignty in the shortest possible time. The details of the conditions of our participation in the IMF-EU deal are set out and published and are now being complied with in respect of Ireland and the Irish people. It does not involve the scale of issues to which the Deputy referred.

We have to continue building on the trade surplus we enjoy because of our strong exports. Interest in investing in Ireland remains exceptionally strong and American industry, for example, has considerable liquidity available to it for continued investment. That is the reason our 12.5% tax rate continues to be a matter of fundamental importance and why it is necessary for us to rebuild our international reputation for the flexibility of our workforce and our proven entry record to the European Union. We also need to develop our own indigenous industries and pursue the opportunities that exist for employment creation.

These are very different situations. Ireland cannot be compared to any other country facing a bailout and it should not be compared to other countries in that regard. Each of the governments concerned is grappling with its own particular problems and the Irish Government has made decisions that will point our country in the direction of being able to comply with the conditions of the IMF-EU bailout and allow us to remove ourselves from the deal in the shortest possible time, an objective to which I am sure the Deputy also aspires.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Arising from the Taoiseach's reply to the two questions I tabled, I am taken aback by his comment, "if it comes up". This is a European Council meeting. When he attended his first meeting on 11 March there was great fanfare about what he was going to do and how he was going to bang tables. That seems to have disappeared from all the spinning and media briefing.

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The greatest spinner ever.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not just about interest rates. Why will the Taoiseach not raise at the European Council the more fundamental issues agreed in the communique of 11 March on delivering more sustainable loan terms not only for Ireland but also as a comprehensive European solution to the debt issue? A pattern is emerging whereby everything is being divested to Ministers once it does not land on the Taoiseach's desk.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a question?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Arising out of his reply on the European Central Bank, has Ireland taken a position in regard to the successor to the current governor of the ECB, Mr. Trichet? Will we use this opportunity to discuss issues pertaining to the bank's role and performance or the fact that it raised interest rates since the crisis emerged? Will we articulate key points in our own interest?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Our intention to pursue Ireland's best interest has not disappeared. I have every faith in the capacity of the Minister for Finance to deal with the responsibility allocated to him and his colleagues by the Heads of Government. The Minister pointed out in a contribution which received credible support that the level of interest in European programmes should be lower and that the cost is too high. He received strong support from a number of countries after he made that contribution. The Heads of Government have given this responsibility to the Ministers for Finance and our Minister is exceptionally strong in this area and has pointed out clearly that the cost of European programmes is too high. At the last meeting, the agenda of which was dominated by the Greek situation, he made that point in general and I am sure the Deputy agrees with him.

I have confidence in the Minister and support him as he carries out the duties and responsibilities assigned to him. Otherwise we will deal with this at Heads of Government level. I will presently receive a briefing from officials in respect of issues we think should be discussed and I will contribute to the meeting according to whatever actually appears on the agenda. This particular matter was given to the Ministers for Finance by the Heads of Government and I have every faith in the ability of our Minister to carry out his duties. In that sense, he has been exceptionally strong, clear and forthright on where Ireland stands and where we want to be.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am flabbergasted that the Taoiseach does not expect the reduction of interest rates to be on the agenda of the next European Council. He reduces his role almost to the level of a commentator on these affairs. His responsibility is to put the issue on the agenda and have it dealt with as speedily as possible.

I asked a question which the Taoiseach did not answer and I will have to use my time putting it again. I asked how much a 1% reduction in the interest rate would save the Irish taxpayer.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not know whether the Deputy was listening. This decision in respect of concluding the negotiations on interest rates has been devolved-----

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I disagree. I was listening.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He might disagree with it but that is the decision of the Heads of Government of the European Union. They made the decision because the Irish banks' stress tests were not complete and they told me they would be unable to deal with the issue if our figures were not accurate. The stress tests were not completed and for that reason the Heads of Government gave responsibility for the matter to the Ministers for Finance. I hope that is clear.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is absolutely clear. The Taoiseach said it a million times.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Ministers for Finance will conclude the negotiations on the interest rate reductions being sought by this and other countries. If they fail to do that and the matter is returned to the Heads of Government, so be it. I have every faith in the ability of our Minister for Finance to do his part of that job. He is doing it very clearly and in a strong and forthright fashion.

The level of interest rate reduction is a matter for the Ministers for Finance to conclude. Various figures have been mentioned, ranging from 0.4% to 1%. The Greek Prime Minister sought a 2% reduction at the beginning and he was given a 1% reduction, although his country was not in the EFSF category. That matter is not concluded and I cannot give the Deputy an answer to his question about what the eventual interest rate reduction will be. The more, the better.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What would a 1% reduction mean?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Approximately €400 million. I may not be accurate but I think that is what it is about.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Question No. 5.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Can I ask a supplementary question?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have spent 25 minutes on Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I did not ask a supplementary question.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy had plenty of time for his question.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I did not. Every other Member asked a supplementary question.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy asked a supplementary question. I call Question No. 5.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I did not. This is unbelievable.