Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Question 14: To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if he has begun negotiations with the 18 religious orders cited in the Ryan Report for the transfer of school infrastructure; the criteria that will be used to zone them for educational or other purposes on their transfer. [9850/11]

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I intend discussing the commitment in the programme for Government to negotiate the transfer of school infrastructure currently owned by 18 religious orders cited in the Ryan report, at no extra cost to the State, with my Cabinet colleagues in the near future. This discussion will take account of my Department's engagement with the congregations regarding the potential use of the various property offers made to date and their acceptability to the State and the congregations' potential to augment their offers, so as to realise a 50:50 sharing of the costs of the response to residential institutional abuse.

Against this background, the formal transfer, without cost to the State, of schools infrastructure could help achieve the 50:50 target. The schools transferred will continue to be used by the religious congregations and/or their successor trusts with the same patronage arrangements as prevail today. The difference would be that the Irish taxpayers, through the State, would be the owners of that educational infrastructure which would continue in use for educational purposes and the issue of change of use would, therefore, be unlikely to arise in the foreseeable future. There will be further engagement with the congregations involved following the Government's consideration of the matter.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Everybody would accept that the original deal on this matter was a bad one from the point of view of the State and redress. The reason I put this question down was to find out the timescale for this. The Minister says it will go to Cabinet shortly. What will the procedure be after that? Will the Minister return to the Dáil to make an announcement on it? There was concern that many of these properties would decrease in value, particularly with the collapse in the property market. Some of this involves the direct transfer of schools but there was also talk of additional buildings being transferred. Can the Minister outline when this will happen? Have the discussions about it concluded?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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No.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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When will that happen? The Ryan report was produced in 2009 and it is now 2011. When will we have a timescale for this?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I am anxious to proceed with this matter as quickly as possible in the interests of equity. In this specific proposal we are not talking about getting extra cash. It is about equity. The religious teaching orders have already given a great deal and many of the valuations they had on their properties have collapsed, as has happened to the many people who are in negative equity. They have not contributed to the desired target of 50:50, which is still the policy of this Government.

I have told the religious teaching orders who own property that they could make good the balance to get as close to 50:50 as possible, and the figures are in the public domain, if they were to transfer the ownership of the schools that they currently possess and operate or which are operated by trusts on their behalf, with the clear assurance that the patronage arrangements of those schools would continue until such time as the schools in question decided or chose to change the patron. However, the Irish taxpayer would be clearly given the legal ownership of those properties, so they could not be sold in future generations. They would remain within the education system.

I initiated this idea when I was a Member of the Opposition. It was an attempt on my part to understand the constraints and pressures being experienced by these aging religious teaching congregations. Every Member of the House is aware of the cost of health care for the elderly, and in many, if not all, cases these congregations do not have a new generation coming through to support them, as would be the case in secular or civilian life. The offer I suggested at the time, which is now part of Government policy, was to enter negotiations and to point out to the trusts or religious congregations that they are short of the 50% target that was set by the previous Oireachtas. One way of meeting it is to hand over the keys and ownership of the properties, on the clear understanding and assurance that they would continue to operate those schools and that the patronage arrangements currently in place would remain in place for such time as they wished. It is up to them if they wish to change them.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Until what date does the Minister envisage those discussions taking place? What is the cut-off date?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I have been in office for less than eight weeks-----

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Is it within the lifetime of the Government?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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We are talking about early in the lifetime of the Government. We will initiate those discussions quite early. The proposal is already in the public domain and the people involved are well aware of my sentiments. I have expressed them more extensively elsewhere. They know what is expected and they are aware of the safeguards. They also know that the property market at present does not offer an alternative for them. The expanding school population suggests that we need the schools anyway. My suggestion is that one way to respond in lieu for what has happened is to symbolically and physically transfer the ownership at no cost.