Dáil debates
Thursday, 21 April 2011
Order of Business
10:30 am
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is proposed to take No. 5, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the dispatch of a further contingent of the Permanent Defence Force for service with the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL); No. 9, Nurses and Midwives Bill 2010 - Report and Final Stages (resumed) to adjourn at 2 p.m today if not previously concluded; No. 7 Criminal Justice (Community Service) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2011 - Second Stage (resumed); and No. 10, statements on suicide prevention (resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the proceedings on No. 5 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 65 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the speeches shall be confined to a Minister or Minister of State and to the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, who may share their time and who shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes. The Dáil, on its rising today, shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday 3 May 2011.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the dispatch a further contingent of the Permanent Defence Force for service with the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal that the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 3 May 2011 agreed to? Agreed.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Any privatisation or disposal of State assets under the McCarthy report would entail legislation. Given various personal statements made outlining the opposition of members of the Government party to the sale of Bord na Móna, Coillte and a number of other State companies, can the Tánaiste assure us that we will not see legislation to dispose of these assets?
The Taoiseach referred this week to the proposed constitutional convention. It has been recent custom in this House for measures relating to the Constitution to be subject to all-party discussion prior to publication. The Taoiseach indicated that the convention is to be a cross-party, cross-community entity, like us in Dáil Éireann, although we apparently not fit to constitute ourselves as such a convention.
There are two Ministers who cannot be held accountable by the House for their actions. Fianna Fáil has placed a notice of motion to address this position immediately instead of waiting for legislation, which would allow the Minister for public expenditure and reform to answer questions on Thursday, 5 May and the Minister for children on Tuesday, 10 May.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will gladly answer questions.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Minister is too busy on "Morning Ireland".
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Government give time for this motion?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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On the possible disposal of State assets, the McCarthy report, which was commissioned by Deputy Lenihan himself in his capacity as Minister for Finance in the last Government, was published yesterday. The contents of the report will be considered by the Government and if any proposals arise from it that require legislation, such legislation will be brought before the House.
It is intended there will be all-party discussions on the proposals for the constitutional convention, which will take place when the Government has given further consideration to it.
A Ministers and secretaries (amendment) Bill will provide for the formal establishment of the Departments of the two Ministers to whom Deputy Lenihan would like to address questions. It is at an advanced stage and will be before the House shortly after we resume.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have been promised statements the week we return from the Easter recess on the revised memorandum of understanding. The revised memorandum has not been published and although it is being discussed in Washington, Frankfurt and God knows where else, Members of this House have not had sight of it. Instead we have been drip-fed elements of the discussions the Government has had with the troika.
From the comments from the Minister for public expenditure and reform this morning, it is clear one of those conversations has been about the disposal of State assets. Judging by the Minister's comments this morning, it is clear the Government is now prepared to go down the cul-de-sac of selling State assets in a bid to pay bank and bondholder debts. Is the Government in the course of yet another U-turn, whereby the proceeds of the privatisation programme will not find their way into stimulus and investment in jobs but will, in accordance with the views of the IMF and EU, be used for debt writedown?
When will the revised memorandum of understanding be published? Will Members of this House see it in advance of the debate next week? Can the Tánaiste give any assurance, as the leader of the Labour Party, that he has not bought wholesale into the Fine Gael-led agenda of flogging the family silver to bail out the very wealthy?
Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is supposed to ask a question.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Butler should desist. I will deal with this matter.
Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is an absolute disgrace. Deputies are supposed to ask questions and receive answers.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Butler should address his remarks through the Chair.
Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McDonald should have asked a question.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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If Deputy Butler does his job, I will do mine.
Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We will be here for the next five years listening to waffle from Deputy McDonald.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Deputy should get used to it.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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It is an absolute disgrace.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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There will not be a dry day in the House.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The previous occasion on which Deputy McDonald accused me of performing a U-turn was in respect of the national minimum wage. She was wrong about that. She is wrong on this occasion with regard to the many more U-turns she is imagining-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will Deputy Howlin indicate if I am wrong with regard to the sale of State assets?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----and attributing to the Government. The EU-IMF programme will be debated for two days in the House when it returns from the Easter recess. The memorandum of understanding will be published when it is completed. It has not yet been completed.
As stated earlier, we were presented with a report on the sale of State assets by the McCarthy group. That report will be considered by the Government and by individual Departments. If any decisions are made on foot of the report, they will be brought before the House.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Higgins is next to contribute.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform stated that the Government will not delay in moving on the issue of the sale of State assets. Are Labour Party Members seriously prepared to be part of this neoliberal hucksters deal-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a matter for the Order of Business. The Deputy cannot question the legal intentions of the Labour Party. He should ask a question.
Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should ask a question.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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-----which will involve pawning the assets of the people to pay off moneylenders. Has the Labour Party learned nothing from the debacles involving Telecom Éireann and Team Aer Lingus?
Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Higgins should ask a question.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Butler should refrain from interrupting. I will deal with this issue. Deputy Higgins should proceed.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Perhaps we should invite the Deputy opposite, whose name escapes me, to take the Chair in place of the Ceann Comhairle?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Deputy Higgins please proceed?
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Higgins is in for it now.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Butler should refrain from interrupting.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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We want to encourage everyone to have their say but newer Members should not attempt to silence those of us who have been here previously.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Higgins should proceed. He should pose a direct question to the Tánaiste and should not worry about the Labour Party or anyone else at this point. Thank you, Deputy.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We gave up worrying about the Deputy a long time ago.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Labour Party will have a great dealt to worry about when working class people realise what it is up to.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Deputy Higgins should stick to the script.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Higgins is locked in an ideological groundhog day.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will the Tánaiste be much more precise with regard to the timetable he envisages in respect of this matter, including that part of it which relates to legislative issues? Will he correct the misleading impression that this sale has something to do with job creation when the EU-IMF deal provides that the money will disappear into the black hole that is European bankers' debts?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy can make those points during the debate.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The McCarthy group report will be considered by the Government and by individual Departments with line responsibility for various State agencies and bodies. The comment by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, to the effect that there will not be a delay relates to making a decision on these matters. This Government's approach is that it makes decisions as quickly as possible. I am sure Deputy Higgins would agree that it is important to have a Government which is decisive.
When Deputy Higgins has an opportunity to read the report he will discover that it is clear that there should not be a fire sale of State assets. He will also find that there is a requirement in any event for regulatory changes to be made in respect of State assets and agencies, irrespective of whether such assets are held by State bodies or whether they are disposed of. Obviously, that is a matter which much be addressed. The issue of disposing of State assets, if and when it arises, will only be considered in the light of market conditions. I reassure Deputy Higgins that nobody is in any rush to dispose of State assets. If there is any disposal of State assets to be addressed, a decision on that will be made by the Government.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It should not even be on the agenda.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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In addition, such matters will be brought before the House.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I wonder what the great James Connolly would think of this.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Before calling Deputy McCarthy, I ask Members to adhere to the Standing Order which allows for questions on promised business.
Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Thank you, a Ceann Comhairle. Unlike previous speakers, I will certainly comply with Standing Orders.
Will the Tánaiste indicate when the Central Bank (supervision and enforcement) Bill will be published? It is obvious that supervision within the financial sector was, to say the least, lacking in recent years. I appreciate that a number of measures have been put in place in the context of merging various units and providing and enhancing supervisory functions. In light of the current crisis and the climate which obtains, will the Tánaiste indicate when the Bill to which I refer will be brought before the House?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Preparation of the heads of the Central Bank (supervision and enforcement) Bill - the purpose of which is to provide for enhancement of financial regulation and expand the supervisory and enforcement powers of the Central Bank - is at an advanced stage. It is intended that the draft version of the Bill will be brought before the Government shortly to facilitate its publication. We hope it will be published by the summer.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Boyd Barrett on promised business.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have read most of the McCarthy report and I found it terrifying. It recommends asset stripping of this country which would involve the sale of vital State assets and companies - by any definition, these are strategic assets - to pay off the bankers, gamblers and speculators.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am not sure if the Deputy heard me direct him to ask a question on promised business.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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When will the Government's response to this document be brought before the Dáil for debate or in some other shape or form?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste has already dealt with that.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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He has not informed the House with regard to when the matter will be debated.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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He did. It will be dealt with the week after next.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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When precisely and under what format will the House discuss a plan to asset strip this country to pay off the bankers?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As I have said on three occasions this morning, the report has just been published. It will be considered by the Government and by individual Departments. I thank Deputy Boyd Barrett for the partial opinion he has expressed, which is based on his partial reading of the report.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I only received my copy at teatime yesterday.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is now too frightened to finish reading it.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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If Deputy Boyd Barrett wants to request an opportunity to have the report debated in the House, when he and other Members have had an opportunity to read it in full, the Government will be glad to oblige by making time available for such a debate.
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday the Taoiseach stated that he has agreed with each member of Government his or her priorities for this Administration's first 100 days in office, including legislation to be published. The legislative programme published by the Government does not refer to the legislation involved in this regard. Will the Tánaiste make arrangements to furnish Members with copies of a list of such legislation?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am not quite sure what the Deputy means. The legislative programme-----
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach stated yesterday that he had agreed with each member of Government his or her priorities for the first 100 days, including legislation to be published.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Yes, that is right and it is reflected in the legislative programme that has been published. Section A of the programme lists the Bills expected to be published by the summer.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The programme for Government makes much mention of legislation for the creation of employment and reform of the social welfare system. What legislation or measures will be put in place to ensure that employers adhere to the regulations currently in place for the protection of employees, specifically the European Communities (Protection of Employees on Transfer of Undertakings) Regulations 2003? Reported cases are showing that employers, specifically in a plant in Cork, are using this as a measure to renege on redundancy payments.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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No legislation is needed to require the enforcement of existing law in respect of employee protection. That is a matter for the enforcement bodies. I will check the position regarding the EU regulations to which Deputy Lynch referred and get back to him.
Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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It is not good enough for the Tánaiste to leave open the question of when the McCarthy report may be discussed in the Chamber. I wish to take up his suggestion that we would discuss it, not at some eventual day when the Cabinet has discussed it, but immediately upon our return. Some 40,000 semi-State workers, of whom I am one-----
Paul KehoeClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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-----are trembling, having listened to the Minister with responsibility for public expenditure and reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, on the radio this morning talking about his imminent decision to proceed with the sale of State assets, which is a threat to those workers.
Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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One person one job.
Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I find it reprehensible-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, you have just asked when the report will be debated.
Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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If I could speak without interruption I would ask that.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are asking it.
Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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What security will the Tánaiste give to those workers and their families and to the taxpayers that he will not stand over the butchery of our assets?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Not on the Order of Business.
Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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We know he is already committed at least to selecting from Mr. McCarthy's menu. We have a right to know, as do those people, which ones he has his eye on. I find it disgusting that Members on the other side are having merriment at the issue of workers' rights.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Tánaiste, when is the debate likely to take place, so that we can clear up this issue?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Government is open to having this debate, by agreement with the Whips. There is a programme for the week when the House returns after Easter.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Whips will meet.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am quite happy to have a debate in the following week. The Government is quite agreeable to having a debate in the House on the McCarthy report, and to lay to rest the fear mongering in which the Deputy herself has been engaged.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The fear is in the report.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The programme for Government states that approximately €2 billion of non-strategic assets will be sold off. In the aftermath of the publication of the McCarthy report, there is much concern regarding the extent of that sale.
I am speaking now as a Donegal man. Previous reports by Mr. Colm McCarthy terrified people in rural Ireland. He talked about closing small schools and rural transport, blocking community development funding and abolishing town councils. Given Mr. McCarthy's history as a right-wing economist, can the Tánaiste give clarification very soon? What are non-strategic assets? What does the Government mean by that? Second, will the resources gained by this sale be invested in job creation or will they be given to the IMF, the EU and the bondholders? The people seek urgent clarification.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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On the same issue and for the information of the House, at the Whips' meeting, neither the Fianna Fáil nor Sinn Féin, nor the Independents sought a debate on the McCarthy report.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Where is their concern now.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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l have asked a question. Will it be answered?
Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is the Tánaiste in a position to comment on his briefings with Irish ambassadors at the EU?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a matter for the Order of Business.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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A Cheann Comhairle, will my question be answered?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It will not. It is out of order. It is a matter for the Whips to agree a date for a debate to take place. That has already been made clear.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, when will the legislation be brought before the House?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is no legislation.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The legislation as promised in the programme for Government to implement the promises made to the people.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please mention the legislation, Deputy.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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No legislation is necessary.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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When will the Tánaiste bring clarification on this issue? People are very worried.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order, Deputy.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Are you protecting the Tánaiste, a Cheann Comhairle? That is not your role.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to withdraw that remark.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Why can I not get an answer?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Withdraw the remark.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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This is the biggest issue in Ireland today.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please withdraw that remark.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I withdraw the remark. Can we have an answer to the question?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is no answer to a question that cannot be answered.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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This is the biggest issue for the people of Ireland, who are terrified
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I do not want to leave this matter hanging. The McCarthy report has been published. It will be considered by the Government and by individual Departments. The Government is agreeable to have the report debated in the House. The opinions of any Member about the contents of the report or where it is going can be set out in the course of that debate. We are agreeable to have the debate by arrangement with the Whips and to have it as early as possible on our resumption after Easter.
I assure the Deputy that there is no legislation. There are no proposals on the table at present. Nothing will be sold by anybody before the debate takes place in the House.