Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Question 44: To ask the Minister for Social Protection when she will raise the issue of payment of child benefit in respect of non-resident children at EU level as stated in the Programme for Government [5978/11]

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 27 and 44 together.

The social security rights of people moving around the EU are governed by EU regulations 883/2004 and 987/2009. These have been in existence in one form or another since 1959 and are designed to co-ordinate the social security systems of the various member states so that people and their families are not disadvantaged when they move within the EU.

A key principle of the co-ordination system is that persons moving to different member states are subject to the same obligations and enjoy the same benefits as the nationals of those member states. With few exceptions, it is the country of employment which receives the social security contributions and which is generally responsible for the payment of benefits.

Irish child benefit is classed as a family benefit with specific rules governing the payment of such benefits. EU nationals who come to work in Ireland, and who pay Irish social security contributions, are entitled to receive child benefit in respect of their families, even if the family resides in another EU member state. The equality provisions of the regulations require these payments are made at the same rates applicable to a person whose family is resident in Ireland. These provisions are seen as important in an EU context for the role they play in encouraging and facilitating the free movement of EU citizens.

As stipulated in the programme for Government, the Government intends to raise the issue of child benefit in respect of non-resident children at EU level and seek to have the entitlement modified to reflect the cost of living where a child is resident. This is a major departure from the current rules and must be approached in a cautious and sensitive manner.

The normal procedure for amending EU legislation is that a formal proposal be put forward by the European Commission which is then discussed and refined at various working parties and groups before being approved by a Council of Ministers. The proposal is then considered by the European Parliament in consultation with the Council. To make progress on the commitment in the programme for Government, it will be necessary to enlist the support of other countries and the European Commission. I am considering the best way of initiating this process.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister aware that the cost of child benefit payments to non-resident children in 2010 came just to €15 million, 0.1% of the Department's overall €20 billion budget? With the downturn in the economy and the subsequent return of many EU nationals to their home states, this figure will continue to decrease.

The programme for Government commits to seeking a change on this benefit payment in the EU. Has contact been made yet with the Commission in this regard? As a former finance spokesperson, does the Minister believe it is wise to risk getting other member states' backs up over this benefit when her Cabinet colleagues are seeking an agreement on reducing Ireland's bailout rate?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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This issue has been used appallingly and with racist undertones by various groupings opposed to Europe and migration. I am concerned such an approach has become pervasive in our society. All politicians have heard those claims on the airwaves and elsewhere that billions in euro are paid out in social welfare payments to children not residing in the State when it is actually only €15 million. As Deputy Ó Snodaigh pointed out, the cost is being further reduced because of returning EU nationals to their home states. This benefit is not a huge drain on the social welfare budget and its provision and cost should not be blown out of proportion.

Changes to the benefit and its rate would require negotiations with all 27 EU member states. The first key point that will be made in such discussions will be that Ireland should reduce its child benefit rates anyway. Due to our dependence on EU funding and support for broader Government spending, such discussions could also open up a Pandora's box in other areas.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Child benefit and other such supports are paid as direct payments to parents. In many EU member states, similar direct payments are far lower, some at even less than €20 a month, because of a lower cost of living or that child care and preschool education is provided by the State rather than through a direct payment to the parent. If a worker here has a child resident in another country, the question arises as to whether there should be some reflection of the cost of living in the payments that child receives from the State. Our EU partners are telling us through the Troika and the International Monetary Fund to achieve value for money in social welfare spending. This is important when considering the spend on child benefit which is significant to families and children, particularly at this time of mass unemployment. The payments should be spent on children in this country as far as is possible.

In 2007, the amount paid in respect of children resident in other EU countries was €4.7 million but by 2008 it had risen to €20.9 million. In 2009, it was reduced to €19 million and to €15.4 million in 2010. This was largely due to immigrants returning to their home countries and the expiry of entitlements.

It is appropriate to examine this spending area in conjunction with our EU partners. Many of them spend money directly on preschool and child care facilities. It must be remembered that the focus of the child benefit payment is primarily the child and the child in their family or other setting in which they are. The provision of subsidised or free child care through the State or local authority would be an enormous benefit, particularly when people are already spending up to €200 a week on child care. I think it appropriate to discuss this. It is important to do so and to discuss the matter with our European partners. Child benefit is particularly important to mothers and women. We do not want to undermine the principle of the payment of universal benefits but it is appropriate to seek that the payment is made to children resident in this country.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody disagrees with the views expressed by the Minister on the matter of children raised outside the State receiving child benefit from the State. People canvassing during the general election came across the view that billions of euro are being transferred from the State to other states. These views are being encouraged by those who have ulterior motives in trying to promote dissent and racism in our communities. I experienced this in Cork, where there is a view that billions are being transferred from the State. When discussing this, we should point out that while €15 million is a sizeable sum, in the context of the overall spending on social welfare it is not the massive amount sometimes portrayed by people. When we are speaking about it, we should try to keep it in context because it creates tensions in some areas and people use it for this purpose.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The total payments for the past three years were approximately €56 million. In the overall child benefit budget, that may not seem like a lot of money but to people relying on social welfare income, €56 million is a lot of money. If we are to retain confidence in the social welfare contract between the citizen and the State, we must ensure we can tell people that the payments are appropriate and that, particularly in this case, payments benefit the children. At the back of some people's minds, there is the question about whether these payments are verified and whether they go to the benefit of the children in other countries. The Department carries out regular checks and requires certification that the children involved exist and are resident where they are advised as being resident. It is important to eliminate social welfare fraud so that Irish citizens have confidence that the taxes they pay when working are used in an appropriate way, particularly to benefit children resident in this country.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Do we have any idea how much money is coming into the State from other countries?