Dáil debates

Wednesday, 23 March 2011

11:00 am

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach his legislative priorities for the 31st Dáil; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5316/11]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The programme for Government outlines the Government's legislative priorities for the 31st Dáil. Ministers have begun the task of developing legislative proposals to give effect to the commitments in the programme. The Government will shortly approve a programme outlining its legislative priorities between now and the end of the summer session and this will be published. The Government will publish a similar programme at the start of each Dáil session.

With regard to my Department, the legislative priority will be the preparation of legislation to enable a referendum to be held on the abolition of the Seanad.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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May I say in passing, there is no reason that a Bill of rights should be confined to the Six Counties. We need a Bill of rights for the whole island.

With regard to the legislative priorities, yesterday the Taoiseach said he intended to establish a constitutional convention. How will that be made up and what legislation is required for it? We have a firm view that it should be on an all-Ireland basis. Will that be done? There is also a commitment to a referendum to amend the Constitution to cut the salaries of judges. Does the Taoiseach know when that Bill will be published? When will the children's rights constitutional amendment Bill be published? Will it be based on the wording agreed by the Committee on the Rights of the Child?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I told the Deputy yesterday that I would give consideration to the inclusion of someone from Northern Ireland in the constitutional convention. As he knows, the convention will not be the final determinant of what will actually happen. It will be a convention at which citizens and others will give their views on a range of issues which I outlined to the House yesterday. Arising from any such report, the Government will consider how best to proceed with its recommendations. The terms of reference and make-up of the convention will be published as soon as I can get around to doing so.

With regard to the referendum on children's rights, to which the Government is committed to holding, I met all of the children's advocacy groups before the general election. A great deal of work was done by the all-party Oireachtas committee on children's rights and it came up with an agreed formula of words which was accepted. Subsequently, the Attorney General made a number of observations on the wording, with which the children's rights groups were disappointed. Having met them, I know they are of the view that it should be possible to reach agreement on a formula of words which could be put to the people in a referendum on the same date as the Presidential election. While I cannot confirm this, I am prepared to consider the matter. The Minister with responsibility for children will work intensively to find whether it would be possible.

The issue of judges is obviously one for a referendum. The Government will consider what is the best course to take in respect of a number of these issues. We must also give consideration to asking the people not only to consider the abolition of the Seanad but also the issue arising from the Abbeylara case. We would like authority to be given to specialised committees of the Dáil to carry out investigative work, with powers to compel attendance. The Deputy will be aware that the Oireachtas has been constrained due to a court decision in the matter.

For each of the referenda mentioned, a Bill will have to be produced and brought before the Dáil. The Government is working diligently to ascertain how quickly they can be produced.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to press the Taoiseach in as positive a way as possible on the convention. People from the North make up one quarter of the population on the island of Ireland. Therefore, they should have one quarter of the representatives. I ask the Taoiseach to consider this. Will the Diaspora be invited to be part of the convention? We are talking about an opportunity to do many good things, reflect the views of the people on this island and the wider Diaspora, see how we are governed and the way in which our society should be built. I want to press this issue, as of right. We cannot talk to others in the North or the Brits who are reticent about aspects of the Good Friday Agreement when we ourselves do not, either in vision or practice, have an all-island or all-Ireland approach.

While the Taoiseach may not have the answer, there has been a rumour that the referenda might be held on the same date as the Presidential election. Will the Taoiseach clarify this point?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When I met the children's advocacy groups, they made the point that we should not have to go back and start the process all over again from scratch, that we should instead start from the point that the all-party Oireachtas committee had produced an agreed wording. With that wording and the Attorney General's views on a changed wording, it should be possible to get agreement on a formula of words that could be put to the people on the same date as the Presidential election. The same could apply to the issue of the abolition of the Seanad. Preparing a Bill dealing with the removal of articles from the Constitution and the implications for other articles in respect of the abolition of the Seanad is not as simple as it sounds. I have asked my Department to start work on this immediately and we will report progress.

On the Deputy's comment concerning the Diaspora and Northern Ireland representation, the convention will deal with recommendations in so far as the Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann, is concerned. Obviously, there are issues that will have an impact in a cross-Border sense or in respect of the wider Diaspora. I do not have a fixed view on the constraints and either the terms of reference for or the membership of the convention. I will give consideration to the two points raised by the Deputy, although perhaps not in respect of the actual percentage. I accept the Constitution of the Twenty-six Counties has implications in many ways for cross-Border activities and so on. In that sense and in seeking to reach a view on the constraints and the terms of reference, we will give consideration to the two points raised by the Deputy.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Particularly the rights of Irish citizens in the North.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the composition of the constitutional convention, I have concerns on the potential for elitism.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy knows, these are only recommendations.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is very difficult conceptually to envisage a convention that will be truly representative of the different strands of society. It might be useful, therefore, to produce a template or a number of templates or scenarios of what is envisaged in order that people could buy into this, as there is a danger that the great and good of Irish society, particularly those who fancy themselves more than others in terms of their contribution to Irish life, will predominate in such a convention. We must ensure, therefore, that this proposal is considered carefully.

With regard to children's rights, the Oireachtas joint committee engaged in consultations for some two and a half years. The last Government then considered the issue, took advice from the Attorney General and produced proposals which were published by the outgoing Minister of State with responsibility for children, Mr. Barry Andrews. While the Government may have issues with the last Government's final template, it is now decision time. We must be practical and decisions must be taken. The constitutional amendment on children's rights should have priority and I do not believe such a referendum should be held on the same day as the Presidential election. I strongly believe that if the amendment to the Constitution is a substantive one, it merits treatment on its own. The election of a President is a very serious issue in its own right which merits treatment on its own and consideration by the electorate. My position is that we should separate the two.

With regard to the abolition of the Seanad, I am struck by the Taoiseach's statement that it is not as simple as it sounds. The only ones who made it sound simple were the people in the Fine Gael Party for the past two years. I am struck by the Taoiseach's comment that it is not as simple as it sounds and that there must be considered deliberation in this regard.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We look forward to that deliberation. Does the Taoiseach accept that the constitutional amendment on children's rights should be separate from the Presidential election?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will recall that it was de Valera who abolished the Seanad without reference to anybody. At least we will have a full consultation process and ask the people. I am not watering it down; I just want to get the matter right. In order to ask the people, we must first produce a Bill and bring it before the House.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Of course.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In addition, there are constitutional implications. We want to get the matter right and are working on this.

My views on the Presidency and Presidential elections are well known. My view is that the term of office should be shortened and that in the future Presidential elections should be held on the same date as fixed-term European and local elections which occur at five year intervals, although that is also a matter for the people. In any case, the constitutional convention will give consideration to this question and how one might bridge the gap between the current five and seven year terms.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is cosmetic.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The issue of children's rights is real and sensitive and there are arguments on both sides. The Government has decided to hold a referendum on children's rights. The newly appointed Attorney General will consider the decision of her predecessor and advise the Government on the wording.

The children's rights groups I met had very serious views and were disappointed about the changed wording brought in by the previous Attorney General. They made the point this wording will not do the job required in respect of children and their rights. I am sure every Member will want to do what is in the best interests of children and at the same time have a correct constitutional balance. Deputy Martin can take it that the Minister for Children and the Attorney General will look at this as a matter of priority and will take into account a continued interaction with the children's rights groups.

Whether the referendum will be held on the same date as the presidential election is a matter to be considered. I do not have a hard and fast view on that but I take the Deputy's point about the importance of both, and whether the people should be asked to decide these questions on separate days. The Government has not made a decision on this but the children's groups are of the belief it would be possible to hold a children's referendum on the same date as the presidential election.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The reason I asked the question is that the issues pertaining to a children's referendum are serious and people from different strands of society may wish to articulate on them. When one mixes this matter up with a presidential election there is a great danger the accusation could be made that the issues are being squeezed and are without full articulation in regard to a proposed amendment to the Constitution. I do not say that is the Taoiseach's intention. In terms of good practice, unless the amendment to the Constitution is completely harmless, namely, without contention, generally speaking where there are substantive amendments to the Constitution with substantive issues involved the matter should be separate from any other. That great danger is present. Various groups will try to be helpful to Government and say they will work with it to have the matter ready for November. However, it does not have to be in November but could be before then if the Government were to agree a proposal in terms of wording, and so on.

That has always been my position. Different Governments have held such referendums on the same days as other matters but I have always had concerns about that in terms of the democracy aspect.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Not only did de Valera abolish the Seanad he attempted to do so in respect of PR. Nothing is more substantive than that, as the Deputy is well aware from history writings.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The people spoke.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I reiterate I have not fixed the terms of reference or composition of the convention. Other locations, for example, British Columbia, have done this from a jury list system with a representative group emerging from all the different strands. What is done is allowing citizens to have a direct input into the way their country is run, with recommendations being offered which a government then considers. This matter will return to the House for discussion. I would like to hear the views of Deputies about how this can best be done in the interests of everybody.