Dáil debates
Thursday, 11 November 2010
Requests to move Adjournment of Dáil under Standing Order 32
10:30 am
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Before coming to the Order of Business I propose to deal with a number of notices under Standing Order 32. I will call on Deputies in the order in which they submitted their notices to my office.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom an Dáil a chur ar athló chun déileáil le gné rí-thabhachtach, namely, the urgent need for the Government to listen to the children of Ireland and respond to the Christmas Wish campaign organised by Protest Against Child Unfriendly Budget by offering a public guarantee that child benefit will not be cut, taxed or means-tested in the coming budget and to instead pursue an alternative route to economic recovery as advocated by Sinn Féin, the trade unions and the community and voluntary pillar on foot of which social spending on children and families could act as a much-needed stimulus for growth in the local economy and the unspent riches of the wealthy would be appropriately taxed in order to lift the disproportionate burden of recovery that is to be unfairly placed on the small shoulders of Ireland's children in budget 2011.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I seek the adjournment of the Dáil under Standing Order 32 to raise a matter of public interest requiring urgent attention, namely, the report published yesterday by the European Court of Auditors stating the closure of the Greencore sugar factory in Mallow in 2006 with the loss of over 300 jobs may not have been necessary. I ask for a debate on the report in this House so the Tánaiste can give an account of the night of 20 February 2006 when the factory-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is embellishing the story.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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-----and an industry that sustained thousands of jobs were sent to their demise. We still do not know what happened on that night.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have noted the sentiments of what the Deputy is saying.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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We have an opportunity today to ask the Tánaiste to give an account of her actions on that night and of why the Fianna Fáil Government consigned an industry to it death.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is out of order under Standing Order 32. I call Deputy Martin Ferris.
Martin Ferris (Kerry North, Sinn Fein)
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I seek the adjournment of the Dáil under Standing Order 32 to debate the report from the European Court of Auditors which found that there was no need to close the Mallow sugar factory and that Greencore misled its workforce and the then Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in its reasons for the closure, and the fact that proposals to keep both the Mallow and Carlow plants open were rejected in order that Greencore could use the sites to engage in property speculation.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I seek the adjournment of the Dáil under Standing Order 32 to raise a matter of public interest requiring urgent attention, namely, the implications of the European Court of Auditors' report that determined that the Mallow sugar plant need not have been closed. I intend to raise this in a special notice question and under Standing Order 21.
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I seek the adjournment of the Dáil under Standing Order 32 to debate a matter of urgent national importance, namely, the finding of the European Court of Auditors that out-of-date information was used when decisions were taken to shut down the national sugar beet industry, leading to a circumstances in which we are totally dependent on imported sugar, which was valued at almost €100 million in 2009.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Having considered the matters raised, I rule that they are not in order under Standing Order 32.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste was the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food at the time in question and, therefore, it is very appropriate to raise this today.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Sherlock to resume his seat.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We understand that. We recognise the importance of the issues that have been raised and we will endeavour to accommodate the requests on the Adjournment.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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We do not get answers on the Adjournment.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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On a point of order, will the Ceann Comhairle endeavour to allow or guarantee us some time today to debate this?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have said what I have said. We will endeavour to accommodate it on the Adjournment.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, will the-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Hayes to resume his seat.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste was the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when the decision was made. It is time for the Ceann Comhairle to remember what the people are saying.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Hayes to resume his seat.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Thousands of people lost their jobs.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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A number of Deputies have got to their feet to ask for a debate on this issue.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Irish farmers were put out of business. The Tánaiste-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Hayes to resume his seat.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle should be ashamed of himself. If he were-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Thousands of people lost their jobs, yet he stops us having a debate. What is happening is a disgrace.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's party's Whip is making a point of order.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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A number of Deputies have risen to ask for a debate but all the Ceann Comhairle is allowing is an Adjournment debate. Hundreds of jobs were lost.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Sherlock to resume his seat.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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What we want is a special notice question and time to debate this matter.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Kehoe on a point of order.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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This is a matter of political principle and also one of serious importance. We are referring to a national industry which was formerly owned by the State and which was sold by it.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I respect the Deputy's sentiments in respect of this matter. He should resume his seat because it is under consideration.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, there is plenty of time available today for statements on this matter to be taken by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. It is most unusual that four or five Opposition Deputies would raise the same issue.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That highlights the importance of the issue. I ask the Tánaiste and the Chief Whip to provide time - perhaps one hour, with 15 minutes devoted to questions and answers - for a debate on the report published yesterday. That is a fair proposition.
Michael RingPaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There is a great deal of time available today. We are seeking-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has exceeded the parameters relating to a point of order.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I would like a reply from the Tánaiste or the Chief Whip in respect of the matter I have raised. This is a very important report and a number of Opposition Deputies are seeking to have it discussed. I ask the Ceann Comhairle to give the matter due consideration.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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As I indicated to a previous speaker, we recognise the importance of the issue and we are endeavouring to make an accommodation in respect of it later in the day.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should resume his seat. I have informed him of the position.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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If I resume my seat, other Members will rise and I would encourage them to do so. The Ceann Comhairle will be obliged to adjourn the House if he does not accommodate our proposition.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We recognise the importance of the issue and we are endeavouring to make an accommodation in respect of it later in the day. The Deputy should resume his seat.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle will be obliged to adjourn the House. What he is doing is scandalous. He is protecting those on the opposite side of the House.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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If Deputy Kehoe does not resume his seat, I will ask him to leave the House.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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On a point of information, is the Ceann Comhairle in a position to elaborate on the term "we are endeavouring"?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes. We have received notification in respect of a private notice question and a number of items have also been tabled in respect of the Adjournment. Between the two, we will endeavour to accommodate Deputies.
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, the House was suspended on three or four occasions in recent weeks because the Government did not have enough business to discuss. We want to discuss this issue now.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not relevant to the matter under discussion. The Deputy should resume his seat.
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The House was suspended on three occasions last week because we did not have enough business to deal with.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, with respect I suggest that this is an appropriate occasion on which Standing Orders should be suspended in order to accommodate a debate on an issue which relates to a major industry that was extinguished as a result of-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are not going to engage in a debate on the matter now.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle is closing down debate.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am trying to raise a point of order.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have already stated that I recognise the importance of the matter and that we will accommodate Members later in the day. Deputy Durkan should resume his seat.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have not finished my point of order. The point I am making relates to the suspension of Standing Orders to discuss an issue of major national importance. In fairness, the Ceann Comhairle is stating that Members will be accommodated in some other way. That is not the issue; the issue is that this is the appropriate mechanism to deal with the matter in question.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will accommodate Members and more than adequate time will be provided to elicit the information.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does the Chair not consider this matter important enough to debate?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan should co-operate with the Chair and resume his seat.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is the most important matter with which the House can deal today.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We fully recognise that and are endeavouring to accommodate Members. Deputy Durkan should resume his seat. I call Deputy Tom Hayes.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, in an effort to try to resolve this matter I would ask-----
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Deputy Stagg and I have been on our feet for the past five minutes trying to raise a point of order. Will the Ceann Comhairle please respect the fact that Labour Party Members wish to speak?
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Government appears to be all over the place in respect of this matter.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Ceann Comhairle to please listen to what I have to say.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order. I have advised the House that we are endeavouring to accommodate this subject material later in the day and we will do so.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Ceann Comhairle suspend the sitting-----
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle should inform the House with regard to what he intends to do.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I suggest that the sitting be suspended for five minutes in order to allow the Whips-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have informed the Deputy that we are considering both the private notice question and the Adjournment debate in order to accommodate the needs of Members. He should resume his seat.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle is closing down democracy. He was part of the Government that was in power when the Greencore factory was closed. The Tánaiste is present and all we need is time to be made available in order that a debate might take place.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will be obliged to ask the Deputy to leave the House if he does not resume his seat.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will not leave the House because what happened in respect of this matter has affected my constituents.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should resume his seat.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle is trying to close down debate.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Tom Hayes should resume his seat.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Standing Orders provide for exactly the type of situation with which we are dealing. I refer to the motions to suspend Standing Orders in order to allow a debate such as that being requested to take place. Standing Order 32 exists for a reason and this is exactly the type of situation in respect of which it applies. It is quite rare that there would be a request to discuss a matter such as that raised by Deputy Sherlock and others this morning. I do not wish to have an argument with the Ceann Comhairle.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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As I advised the House earlier, we are endeavouring to accommodate this matter.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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What does the Ceann Comhairle mean when he uses the term "We are endeavouring"?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That will be done under two possible headings, namely, a private notice question - one of which has been submitted - and on the Adjournment. A submission has also been received in respect of the latter. We will endeavour to provide adequate time under either or both of those headings.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kehoe should resume his seat.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, it has been demonstrated that this is an extremely serious matter and a solution has been proposed.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I am still in possession.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Will the Tánaiste accommodate a debate on this matter today?
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste can resolve the matter now. Will she reply to the question I have asked.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Reilly should desist.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The method of resolving this matter is entirely in the Ceann Comhairle's hands.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes, and I am endeavouring to resolve it.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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If the Ceann Comhairle did not continually interrupt, I would have finished my point long ago.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair does not interrupt, it intervenes.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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This matter is entirely in the Ceann Comhairle's hands; it is not a matter for the Whips. We have given the Ceann Comhairle power, under the Standing Orders of the House, to deal with special situations that arise. This is one such situation and the Ceann Comhairle should use the Standing Order in respect of it.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have advised the House that we are going to deal with this matter and that it will be accommodated under the headings I have outlined.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, how does the Ceann Comhairle propose to deal with it?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have indicated that an application to submit a private notice question-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is not a matter for the-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----has been received and that an application to raise the matter on the Adjournment has also been submitted. Accommodating a question-and-answer session in respect of the private notice question seems to be the best way to elicit the information Members require.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, we have as yet not reached the Order of Business.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes, but we will shortly.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Ceann Comhairle should bear with me.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister of State at the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy White, indicate what the people of Carlow think about this matter?
Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State is not very sweet this morning.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We can accommodate the demands-----
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What do the people of Carlow think about this waste of natural resources?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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If I could have some silence, I will proceed. We could accommodate the debate that is urgently required if the sitting were suspended for a minute or two so that the Order of Business might be changed. The debate being requested could be held at noon. I am trying to be of assistance.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The first item on the Order of Business is the Local Government (Mayor and Regional Authority of Dublin) Bill.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Which is a waste of time.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The debate on this legislation is due to be carried over into next week. Therefore, a debate on the matter under discussion could easily be accommodated-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We hear what the Deputy is saying.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----if the sitting were suspended for a couple of minutes in order to allow the appropriate arrangements to be made by the Whips.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I do not believe it is possible to point to an example where a matter taken on the Adjournment has been addressed by the responding Minister. The Adjournment will not deal with a matter of fundamental importance wherein, on the basis of an indigenous product, 250 manufacturing jobs were being provided-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot debate the matter now. I have indicated that we are giving serious consideration to having the matter dealt with in the form of a private notice question. The latter is not the Adjournment.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I am glad to hear it. The Adjournment is not a suitable occasion on which to discuss why the Tánaiste sold out the beet industry.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Applications have been made to have the matter dealt with on both the Adjournment and in the form of a private notice question.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to be disorderly and I know the Ceann Comhairle does not want me to be disorderly. It is not in the interests of any Member to be disorderly in respect of this matter. As Deputies Stagg and Kehoe pointed out, Standing Order 32 is in place to deal with specific situations such as that which has arisen. If it is seen outside the House that the Ceann Comhairle does not believe this matter to be sufficiently serious in nature to allow a debate on it to take place under Standing Order 32, that will reflect badly on the House.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will be accommodating the matter under Standing Orders.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, that will not be the case.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Applications have been made under three headings, namely, Standing Order 32, private notice questions and the Adjournment. We are endeavouring to accommodate it under private notice questions later today in order to provide Members with ample opportunity to pursue the different aspects of the matter.
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle is being asked to allow a debate under Standing Order 32. He is not being asked to deal with a private notice question.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan should resume his seat and co-operate with the Chair.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I will sit down when I have made the following serious point. This is the first opportunity of the day for Members to request a debate on a serious issue relating to a major industry. Is that not correct?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are going to provide the opportunity to do it.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, it is provided for in Standing Orders. I ask the Ceann Comhairle to allow Standing Orders to take their due course and allow the debate to take place under this Standing Order.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, I have advised the House what we are going to do.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This is the appropriate Standing Order.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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A private notice question should be asked.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This is the only Standing Order------
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, I am meeting the needs of the Members.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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On a point of order, I want the Ceann Comhairle to explain to the House what he meant by "We" when he said, "We are endeavouring". Is he talking about himself or the Government?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, I am talking about myself and my office.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Quinn, you know very well that decisions regarding------
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----private notice questions and the Adjournment are decisions for the Office of the Ceann Comhairle and that is where the decision will be taken on the matter.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle and I have been in this House a long time. I cannot remember five Members of the House asking for the same item to be raised and for Standing Orders to be suspended. He should respect the totality of this House and accede to what is-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, I am doing just that.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle should tell us what he is going to do.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I told the Deputy I was going allow it under a private notice question.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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That is not sufficient.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It happens all the time.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle ruled out the suspension of Standing Orders to allow for this matter to be debated. He said it could be dealt with on the Adjournment. That is not satisfactory because-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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A private notice question.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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A private notice question does not deal with it either because it will be addressed to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith. We need to hear from the Tánaiste, who was the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food at the time and who was at the Council of Ministers. We have a report from the EU Court of Auditors that states very clearly that the factory did not have to be closed, it was a profitable business, it had enormous potential and was a modern operation. The issue which Deputies and the Labour Party want to get to the bottom of is why it ended up being closed down. What role did the Tánaiste-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore, we cannot have a debate on this matter at this point in time.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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------play when she was Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to co-operate with the Chair.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is called accountability.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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And a functioning Parliament.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are accommodating the House in that regard.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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This House is entitled to have that accountability and the mechanism which the Ceann Comhairle proposed does not deal with it. If the Tánaiste is willing to come into the House, address the issue, tell the House how she handled it when she was Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, why the factory was closed and is prepared to answer questions about her role at the time, that will address the issue.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the way it works.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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What is Deputy Dempsey saying?
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I asked if we should get the Commission in as well.