Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Question 53: To ask the Minister for Finance if he will provide a breakdown of the staffing levels in his Department; if he considers them to be adequate and fit for purpose; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41534/10]

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I have circulated with the reply a table outlining the breakdown of full-time equivalent staffing levels in my Department at the end of October 2010. I will recite the numbers. The Department staff consists of one Secretary General; one Secretary General on the public service side; three second secretaries; 12 assistant secretaries; 50.1 principal officers; 128.95 assistant principal officers; 51 administrative officers; 81.39 higher executive officers; 50.2 executive officers; 26.63 staff officers; 97.83 clerical officers; 23 service officers; two service attendants; one chief medical officer; one deputy chief medical officer; two physicians; three nurses and 6.66 teachers. This makes a grand total of 541.76 whole-time equivalents.

I am happy to tell the Deputy I am very satisfied with the performance of my Department, particularly in light of the extraordinary demands placed on it in the period since I came to office. During this time there have been significant challenges to meet in terms of attempting to stabilise the country's finances, to restore confidence in its banking system and to ensure that the country can re-establish its competitiveness.

My Department has recently retained the services of a number of staff with economic expertise to advise on economic policy issues and the changes within the structure of the Department that have been made have demonstrated the flexibility of the Department to deal with particular challenges faced by it in challenging and changing economic circumstances.

I am deeply appreciative of the professionalism and dedication of the staff at my Department in the very demanding circumstances we have faced, and are still facing, in the context of the difficult decisions this Government had to take and which and future Governments will have to take.

As the Deputy is aware, my Department is the subject of an independent review process which will presumably have implications for the structure of the Department and its skill base, and which I hope will report before the end of the year. The independent review group will undertake a comprehensive evaluation of the systems, structures and processes of the Department of Finance relating to those elements of budgetary, economic, financial and public service management relevant to its role.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I will focus on my main concern, the banking expertise or the lack of it within the Department, principally during the height of the lending boom when billions of euro were being shovelled out by the banks. As I understand it, there have been improvements in the Department in the past 12 months in regard to the banking side. There has been an increase of 50% in staffing and a number of experts, including a banking analyst, a banking accountant, a legal adviser dealing with financial services matters and a senior economist, have been put into that section.

I have two issues, given the importance of the bank issue for the future of this country. How was the Department left without all of this necessary expertise during a time of a major explosion in bank lending, which seemed to happen on an unregulated basis? Is the Minister satisfied with the additional expertise he has acquired on the banking side in his Department and is the Department fully fit for purpose for the future?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I am satisfied that my Department has augmented the expertise available to it in this area, first, through my decision made earlier this year to delegate certain functions to the NTMA, which has a recognised expertise in money matters and has also developed an expertise in regard to banking matters, and, second, through additional recruitment within my Department, to which Deputy O'Keeffe very fairly referred. The Department has recruited the services of four experts from the financial services area through a combination of direct employment and secondment from both the private and public sector. In 2009, the Government approved the appointment of a banking analyst with extensive knowledge and experience in the banking field on a three-year employment contract. In addition, the Department has recently secured the services of a banking accountant for a period of 12 months through an agreed secondment arrangement, with no cost to my Department. The Department has engaged an expert in business and legal studies and a master's accountant. The Department has also engaged on secondment from the Office of the Attorney General a senior legal adviser to the Department solely on financial services matters. All of those matters have been attended to in terms of the current arrangements and I look forward to the report of the independent review group to see whether any further strengthening is required.

In regard to the historical position, again, I am not in a position to answer that question today. The Deputy will appreciate these matters are under investigation and have already been examined in Watson and Regling report.

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister's reply was interesting. Normally, the distribution of grades in a Department is a pyramid when graphed. The Minister's Department seems to be more of a cylinder. If it was an Army unit, the Minister would be accused of having far too many officers and too few soldiers.

Are there staff in the Department who have been seconded from the private financial sector? If so, how many, what are the terms of their secondment and what protocols has the Minister in place to avoid conflicts of interest?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Again, I will undertake to furnish the Deputy with that information. There are some individuals involved. While I am briefed with detailed matters in that regard, it would be better if I communicated by letter with the Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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How many qualified professional accountants with professional experience and statisticians are employed in the Department of Finance? How many staff, other than the one assistant secretary of whom we all know, have experience working as economists in the private sector or in other sectors?

Does the Minister feel he got value from the €33 million he is reported to have spent on the services of three professional firms at the time of the banking crisis - one firm of accountants, one firm of lawyers and one firm of financial advisers?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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As I understand the matter, the bulk of that was arranged through the NTMA. In regard to Deputy Burton's other questions, I will give her the precise information she wants in regard to the professional qualifications of members of my Department.

Public accounting and the conduct of public accounts is a speciality in its own right, distinct from private accounting.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I know that.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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There are many individuals in my Department, the Deputy will be glad to hear, who have a knowledge in regard to the preparation and publication of public accounts which is far more detailed than the awareness any private accountant would have.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Are there any professional accountants in the Department other than banking accountants-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister indicated he would check that and revert to the Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I presume the answer is "No".

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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It is not. I said I would furnish the Deputy with the details.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If the Minister will allow me, the Minister indicated he would check and revert to the Deputy on that matter. I call Deputy Morgan.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister should answer the question.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister confirm that the Department will follow whatever direction is given by its political boss at any given time, and, therefore, if it looked the other way during the banking crisis, responsibility for that is clearly with the political master of the Department at the time?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a very big question.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, it is not.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is responsible for the Department. In our constitutional system, the Minister is always responsible for the conduct of the business of a Department, and responsible and accountable to this House for how the business of the Department is transacted. Of course, in some matters, that can be pushed to an absurdity where a Minister is criticised because a set of paper clips was ordered which was a waste, or whatever. Clearly, the Minister does not authorise expressly the purchase of paper clips in a Department.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is a bit bigger than that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are talking about the purchase of banks, not paper clips.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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That said, the Minister is responsible for fundamental issues of policy in a Department - no one contests that.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted the banking expertise in the Department has been strengthened considerably during the Minister's tenure in office. Some might say it is a like closing the stable door after the horse and many billions have bolted. Who will take responsibility for the fact we did not have that expertise in the Department when it was so badly needed during the height of the banking boom?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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There was extensive experience and expertise in banking matters in the Department at all stages. Of course, the officers with that expertise and experience within the Department could also draw on the expertise of the Central Bank and the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority, as it was then known.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Is that a joke?