Dáil debates
Wednesday, 20 October 2010
Ceisteanna - Questions
Code of Conduct for Office Holders
11:00 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach Taoiseach his plans to amend the Code of Conduct for Office Holders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30237/10]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach Taoiseach his plans to amend the Code of Conduct for Office Holders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32341/10]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach Taoiseach his plans to amend the Code of Conduct for Office Holders; if he has satisfied himself with the operation of the code; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35869/10]
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 to 5, inclusive, together.
The code of conduct for office holders was drawn up by the Government pursuant to section 10(2) of the Standards in Public Office Act, 2001, following consultation with the Standards in Public Office Commission, and was published in July 2003. A review of the code and its operation will be carried out, in consultation with the Standards in Public Office Commission, after the Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill 2007 has been enacted.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call on An Teachta Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Tá go maith. I will take them in order.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The microphone is now switched on. I note the Taoiseach's predecessor appeared in a television advertisement in which he appeared to be sitting in a cupboard, publicising his-----
Deirdre Clune (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It refers to code of conduct.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is about Deputy Ahern publicising his career as a football commentator. I remember standing in Mount Street on the night - the Taoiseach probably remembers it too - Desmond O'Malley was expelled from the Fianna Fáil Party for what was termed "conduct unbecoming". This is a person who was given the honour and esteem of-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are times for that line but not now.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Hold on, a Cheann Comhairle. The person I am referring to was elected as the Taoiseach of this country on three occasions, an honour that is almost unique. He is still in receipt of public moneys for his service as a public representative. Does the Taoiseach believe, in respect of the code of conduct for current and former office-holders, that to have this apparition on the national television screens in what appeared to be a cupboard is conduct becoming? Did Deputy Ahern consult with the Taoiseach before he did something like this? It brings the Taoiseach's office into disrepute.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy knows this matter does not fall under the general heading under consideration. There are other ways, if the Deputy wishes to pursue the matter but perhaps not-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach plan to amend the code of conduct for office holders and will he make a statement on the matter? The former Taoiseach is in receipt of privileges, as a former office holder. This is not conduct becoming for somebody who has held that service and I wish to hear the Taoiseach's view on it.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Taoiseach, this is not really appropriate.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Come on. It is a question.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is the Ceann Comhairle ruling it out?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are talking about the code of conduct for office holders.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The former Taoiseach is not a current office holder.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Can he do anything he likes? Can he stand on his head?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen, has views on this although he might not wish to express them in the Chamber. I have asked the question but it appears he does not wish to answer it.
The Cabinet handbook 2007 states that applications for the use of ministerial air transport should be submitted to the Taoiseach in respect of every mission, to include destination, route, timing, passenger details and purpose of travel. The justifying need to use the service should be set out in every application and the relative cost of ministerial air transport to possible alternatives should always be borne in mind in preparing travel plans. The relative cost of ministerial air transport services to possible alternatives should be always borne in mind in preparing travel plans. I note that the Minister for Transport travelled to Glenties during the summer and part of that journey was made in the Government jet. Does the Taoiseach recall getting a request from the Minister for Transport for that? Given that he travelled by jet meant the PSNI had to be put on security notice, a garda driver had to go ahead of the Minister and the cost involved was around €100,000.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That matter has been dealt with under freedom of information arrangements, and obviously it was in compliance with requirements. I understand the Minister was heading on to other official engagements the following morning.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My question was whether the Taoiseach recalled getting a request from the Minister for Transport in accordance with the Cabinet 2007 handbook, which stipulates a request must be made to the Taoiseach in such matters. Given that the car was going there and the PSNI had to be instructed as regards security, perhaps the Taoiseach might like to comment on that.
Just before Deputy Gilmore comes in, the Taoiseach will be aware that the Cabinet handbook needs amendment because it has been breached on a number of occasions by members of the Government. The use of the Government jet has to be cleared by the Taoiseach, and clearly in a number of cases something peculiar happened. I have asked questions before as regards how the Government jet arrived in Las Vegas. Some confused meteorological conditions were indicated as the reason it was there overnight. The Minister of Defence was caught out charging the taxpayer €46,000 over several years to pay Fianna Fáil activists to deliver leaflets across the constituency. Has the Taoiseach tightened up on this regime, and in that sense is it made perfectly clear on a regular basis to his colleagues in Government that there are rules and regulations in the Government handbook that should be strictly adhered to, and if not that he, as Taoiseach, will ensure infringements are punished accordingly?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept the veracity of what the Deputy has alleged. He has a very detailed response from me given in a previous question time regarding the circumstances in which the Government jet was used, with reference to the locations to which he referred. Full verification was provided to him and yet he continues to suggest he got some confused meteorological-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let us not be ridiculous. We should take matters seriously and not carry on with facetious nonsense like that. Otherwise, we are wasting our time.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is like former Deputy Gerry Collins's reply to the late Deputy Oliver Flanagan here one day, when the convent in Mountmellick was robbed, and he produced meteorological reports to that effect.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Kenny did not cite the most appropriate section of the code of conduct, where it states that office holders are required to "conscientiously and prudently apply the resources of their office in furtherance of the public interest, and to ensure that the use of officially provided facilities are designed to give the public value for money". Does the Taoiseach agree with me that the code of conduct was certainly breached in the use of the Government jet by Deputy Noel Dempsey, Minister for Transport, to fly to the MacGill summer school and his ministerial car was driven to Derry to meet him when he arrived by air from Baldonnel to take him to Glenties? The whole thing is ridiculous. He actually had another garda-driven car taken from his home in Navan to Baldonnel Airport while his ministerial car was heading up the country to Derry to meet him on his arrival. The whole thing is bizarre. Against all that has unfolded in the past couple of years, in particular, this was a most cavalier action, at the very least------
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind the Deputy that this is Question Time.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----wholly inappropriate and in breach of the code of conduct. Will the Taoiseach not be quite specific and state clearly that he recognises that this action was not only inappropriate but in breach of the code of conduct, in line with what I have directly cited from it?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we please have a question?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is my question. I am asking the Taoiseach whether he accepts that the actions of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, were in breach of the code of conduct in that instance, and will he again outline what steps he is taking to ensure there will be no repetition of what is clearly a patent abuse?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I make the point again to Deputy Ó Caoláin that the Minister for Transport had to make that attendance and be in London the next morning. I have not the detail before me, but that was the basis of the matter. It was not a question of simply going to Glenties. Rather, it was a question of doing Glenties and being in London the following morning. He was therefore seeking to attend two functions, one after the other and he had to ensure he reached London by a certain time. Those are the circumstances.
As regards the use of the PSNI, regardless of the ministerial mode of transport going into the Northern Ireland jurisdiction, PSNI security clearance is required. Those are the circumstances in which that occurred.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not accept that is the full story. Whether the Minister had an appointment next day in no way excuses the transport arrangements he put in place for that journey to Glenties. I am surprised at the Taoiseach's response given that the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, stated at a subsequent Ógra Fianna Fáil event-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I might just advise the Deputy for a moment. If Members wish to make charges against other Members of the House, there is a recognised procedure for doing this.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, but we are dealing with questions on the codes of conduct.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is pursuing the matter, however, by way of supplementaries.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It does not matter how uncomfortable people are about this, we have a responsibility to ask the appropriate questions. I am making the point to the effect that the Taoiseach's response is very surprising, given that the Minister for Transport stated at a subsequent Ógra Fianna Fáil event that he was wrong to have used the jet to fly to Derry, facilitating his access to the Glenties event on that day. Those were the Minister's words, in effect, subsequently and the Taoiseach seems to be at variance with that view in defending Deputy Dempsey's use of the jet. The Minister is fully cognisant of the fact that he had to go to London next day.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is imparting information, not asking questions.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not as if this was a single incident. Finally, does the Taoiseach believe the use of the Government jet to fly back the Minister of State, Deputy Dara Calleary, to participate in a vote to prevent the moving of the writ for the Donegal South-West by-election, was suitable in that particular instance? He was flying back from Brussels, by the way.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As regards the first part of the Deputy's question, he is misrepresenting the context in which Deputy Dempsey took the flight to Glenties. He suggested in his first question that he simply took a flight to Glenties, when he could have just taken a car. The Minister had another appointment in London the following morning, to which he flew, from Derry. That was the context. The Deputy then sought to use negatively Deputy Dempsey's acknowledgement that he would seek, in furtherance of the code of conduct, to ensure such a situation does not again arise. It is very hard to satisfy the Deputy.
In relation to his second point, the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, was on official business in Brussels. He completed his business there and was required back here in the House. Is there a presumption to the effect that he should have thumbed home?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many thousands did flying back for a vote to prevent the moving of a writ cost?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach in reply to the question about the code of conduct for office holders, told us that a review will be carried out in consultation with the Standards in Public Office Commission after the Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill has been enacted. The Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill has been around for a long time. The Taoiseach will recall that this Bill was first promised on 10 October 2006 by the then Tánaiste, former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, in response to information that had come into the public domain to the effect that the then Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, had received dig-out money.
The purpose of the Bill was that where an office holder got a gift from a friend for personal purposes, he or she would seek advice from the Standards in Public Office Commission as to whether it was all right to accept the gift. The Bill in question was passed in the Seanad in 2007, and we have had neither sight nor light of it since. It has never come into this House. I have asked the Taoiseach about this before because I cannot understand why this is the case. There have been days here with little enough in the way of legislation from the Government to occupy the time. There have been occasions on which the House was adjourned due to a lack of legislative business, including yesterday.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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An inquiry to the Whips as to whether they have been dealing with it might help.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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According to the Taoiseach, the review of the code of conduct cannot take place until the Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill has been passed. I want to know when he will bring it to the House so it can be passed.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is a matter for the Whips to consider at any time. There is no reason to review the code of conduct at present as I am not aware of any aspects that have been criticised or with which there is a problem. When that Bill is enacted, we can review the code of conduct to ensure it takes cognisance of the new legislation.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That answer surprises me because I understand the Standards in Public Office Commission has made a series of recommendations for changes in the code of conduct and the purpose of a review was to take account of those recommendations. The Taoiseach stated in his reply to the original question that the review would be done when the Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill was passed, yet he is now saying there is no reason to review the code of conduct. If there is no reason to review it there are clearly no grounds for all these consultations with the SIPO Commission.
I ask the Taoiseach to be clear. Is he saying there will be no review of the code of conduct? If he is saying that, fair enough. It is a straight answer. However, in his reply he said it would be reviewed in consultation with the SIPO Commission after the long-awaited Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill had been dealt with.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The review of the code and its operation will be carried out after the enactment of the Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill. That is what the reply states. When that is done, we can undertake the review. If there are other issues that need to be dealt with, presumably that is when it will be done.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As soon as the legislation is enacted, so whenever that happens.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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When will the Bill come to the House?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Whenever the Whips can arrange it. I do not have a date for it.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have a date for it.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I asked the Taoiseach before.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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We can bring it in next week. There is no problem with that.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Is the Taoiseach blocking it?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Deputy Gormley is blocking it.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Next week it is. I thank the Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thought the Deputy would have got over his conspiracy theories at this stage of his life.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach knows of a few conspiracies himself.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We should not go there.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Lost Revolution - is that what it is called? Has he read it?
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I would like to have been a fly on the wall at his meeting with the Anglo Irish Bank directors.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy need not worry about that. I have no worries about it.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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He has not told us much about it.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is part of the old-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the oldest Sticky trick in the book.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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What were they talking about?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we bring the House to order?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is the oldest Sticky trick in the book.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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What were they talking about?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask for the Deputies' co-operation.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understand Deputy Quinn met them too when he was a Minister, but the Deputy does not have a problem with that, does he?