Dáil debates
Tuesday, 19 October 2010
Order of Business
4:00 am
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 9, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on the right to information in criminal proceedings, back from committee; and No. 3, the Chemicals (Amendment) Bill 2010 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 9 shall be decided without debate. Private Members' business shall be No. 75, motion re loan guarantee scheme.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on the right to information in criminal proceedings, back from committee, without debate, agreed to?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not agreed, pending clarification on a matter by the Taoiseach. This morning the Minister for Health and Children indicated that there would be something of the order of €600 million to €1 billion in cuts in the health service. Given the Croke Park agreement this therefore-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is somewhat off the theme of the proposal.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----must clearly in the Minister's own presentation be directed at front line services. We need an opportunity for the Minister for Health and Children to come before this House in order that we can have statements on the serious crisis in the health service, and that this House has an opportunity-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is out of order on the Order of Business.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----to properly express its position. I am seeking time to be provided on the Order of Business. It has long been established that it is appropriate to do so. I am asking the Government whether it will provide an opportunity for the Minister to come to the House-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not appropriate to ask at this time.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----to address this matter because it is of such severity that if what the Minister indicated this morning were implemented it would have devastating consequences for a health system already seriously depleted. I am asking the Taoiseach, given the gravity of the situation, to ensure that the Minister would come before the House-----
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----and that we would have an opportunity not only to make statements-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask for the co-operation of Deputy Ó Caoláin.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----but to question her on all of the serious matters under her brief that are not being addressed on the floor of the House.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is abusing some latitude I extended to him.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is a legitimate question on the Order of Business.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy resumes his seat, I am sure we will have a quick response.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Taoiseach to indicate positively because I believe it is absolutely imperative that this opportunity is provided.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Those are always matters for the Whips to consider.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, a Cheann Comhairle, it is not a matter for the Whips. That is just kicking it to touch.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has had a good innings on the matter.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Taoiseach-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin's party has a Whip in the House and the Whips consult on a regular basis.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Taoiseach to arrange time for a debate with the Minister for Health and Children. She has signalled up to €1 billion in cuts in the health services in the coming year.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The matter is out of order on the Order of Business.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is what is out of order.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy wishes to debate the matter he should bring it up at the Whips' meeting.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, I again ask the Taoiseach-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has heard the Taoiseach's response.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----to provide time to discuss the serious situation outlined by the Minister for Health and Children that she will make cuts of up to €1 billion from the health budget.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should resume his seat.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the Taoiseach's response?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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He has already responded. The Deputy should resume his seat.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That was not a response.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should please resume his seat.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was not a response.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy does not resume his seat, he knows the consequences.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I know the consequences. That is why I am asking the Taoiseach the question. This is a serious matter.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am putting the question. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on the right to information in criminal proceedings, back from committee, without debate, agreed to? Agreed.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise two matters on the Order of Business if I may, a Cheann Comhairle. Deputy Charles Flanagan has raised the question of the children's referendum on a number of occasions. People working in the child care area in general are absolutely confused about the Government's intentions on the proposal to hold a referendum on children's rights. I respectfully suggest that a debate in the House to tease out all those matters would be appropriate. It is an issue that is causing serious concern for those who are involved and working in the child care area. Will the Taoiseach make arrangements with his Whip to allow for that?
Arising from the information we now have about the provision of the national children's hospital on the Mater Hospital site, the Minister for Health and Children appointed a chairman to a group to look at this.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is taking a circuitous route.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am coming to a question on legislation. That chairman identified what he considered to be serious issues that needed to be addressed. Instead of their being addressed by the Minister, when they were brought to her attention, she asked for his resignation. One of those issues is that it will be necessary to remove 8,000 lorry loads of material to make way for a car park at a cost of €100 million.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is out of order on the Order of Business.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister for Health and Children come into the House for statements about this matter when every charity in the country is strapped for cash and the Government now expects philanthropy to produce €200 million?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy could use a parliamentary question or the Adjournment to address this issue.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is necessary to introduce legislation to deal with issues arising from Crumlin Hospital and Tallaght Hospital to give effect to the implementation of a national children's hospital. If we are to have statements from the Minister for Health and Children, when will the Government introduce the legislation required?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I answered detailed questions on the children's rights referendum in the House last week. Deputy Flanagan asked a relevant supplementary question and I gave the full details on the up to date position; there has been no change since then. Work is ongoing and when it has been considered, it will be appropriate then to come back for discussion in the House and at the relevant committee on how to proceed and maintain the widest possible support for the issue.
The other issue has been dealt with. We have decided to build the national children's hospital on the site adjacent to the Mater Hospital following a rigorous analysis. The McKinsey report was published in 2005, the Department of Health and Children, the HSE and the OPW, following extensive consultations, published a report in 2006 and RKW published a report in 2007 which included a detailed assessment of capacity at the site that concluded that all requirements can be accommodated there while allowing room for expansion beyond 2021. That report was informed by clinical and architectural experts from major children's hospitals in Toronto, Philadelphia and Manchester. Since then, further work has been done. The Faculty of Paediatrics, the authoritative professional body representing paediatricians in Ireland, as late as 12 October last publicly supported the new hospital and recommended it should proceed as a matter of urgency.
Unfortunately the chairman has resigned and the issues are known. There was a question of how the remit of the hospital was to proceed with the building of the hospital on that site. Of the last 25 major paediatric hospitals worldwide, 24 have been built adjacent to adult hospital sites. I thank him for the work he did at the time.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have explained that.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should not tell us he resigned for no reason.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Another respected person is now in the chair and we can proceed.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The issue raised by Deputy Kenny, the national children's hospital, makes it necessary for the Minister for Health and Children to make a statement to the House and answer some questions.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we pursue the matter through the Whips?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I would be happy to do that but I am raising this because the former chairman in his resignation statement expressed in diplomatic language that there was a problem with the hospital going on that site, what he referred to as" planning and design challenges". He said there was a shortage of money, which he referred to as "funding shortfall", and that the Government is not clear about is policy, referring to "clarity, or lack of it" of Government policy. He also said there is a "communications difficulty" among the stakeholders, meaning people are at sixes and sevens over what is happening.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is out of order.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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There may be explanations for this but there is a great deal of public money involved. It is a major project and the Minister should come into the House and make a statement.
The Minister for Finance promised he would introduce legislation and regulations to crack down on crony capitalism. The Labour Party also published a range of proposals on corporate governance and whistle blowing. I read in an article in The Irish Times that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has also expressed strong views on the need for legislation to crack down on white collar crime. He said that he has insisted upon the establishment of a Cabinet sub-committee to consider all aspects of fraud and white collar criminality. I have looked through the reply the Taoiseach gave me on 29 September in response to a question I asked about what Cabinet subcommittees were in existence and I do not see any sub-committee on fraud and white collar crime. Is there a Cabinet sub-committee on white collar crime and fraud or will such a sub-committee be set up and when?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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For the purpose of clarification, the funding mechanism for the hospital is the one that was in place at the beginning of the project. Any suggestion it has been changed is wrong. The same arrangements are in place and the same issues must be addressed.
In May, the Minister for Justice and Law Reform wrote to the Garda Commissioner to look at the law on white collar crime based on the experience in cases that have been investigated. The Commissioner has responded in detail by letter in recent weeks and he has indicated what is worth examining. We have engaged several colleagues, not every committee must be a formal Cabinet committee, this is an informal-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I asked the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Innovation to prepare a paper on corporate enforcement.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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We should not hold our breath waiting for that.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy wanted some information. The Minister for Finance and the Attorney General will meet to see how matters could be progressed where that is deemed necessary.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Is there a sub-committee?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is a sub-committee.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Who is on it? How often does it meet?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We do not set up every committee formally. Maybe Deputy Gilmore's rigid Stalinist training says it must be done that way.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore would want to move on from the old WP days, the Labour Party boys are a bit more informal than that.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is consensus building again.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy did a fair bit half an hour ago. I did not go for the bait, that is what has disappointed him.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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There was an interesting letter in The Irish Times about it, the Deputy has suffered memory loss.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the support this afternoon-----
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Ahern has forgotten all the auld trees he went up in north County Dublin.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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He has forgotten where he was, and who he associated with. A memory lapse.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What about all those trees Deputy Ahern climbed?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the support for my call last week on every sitting day that the Minister for Health and Children-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Deputies please refrain from engaging across the floor?
5:00 am
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Ceann Comhairle should direct his bell where it is properly required. I was making the point that consensus on the Opposition benches takes longer but I welcome the fact that Deputies Kenny and Gilmore today supported a call I made each sitting day last week: that the Minister for Health and Children be brought here to make statements and answer questions on the national children's hospital debacle, for that is exactly what it is.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is out of order on the Order of Business. I advise other Deputies to pursue it via the party Whip arrangement.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If it takes until next week for her to be brought into the Chamber to answer her utterances of this morning in respect of a threatened reduction of up to €1 billion-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sure the Deputy's party Whip will raise the matter at the next meeting.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----in the budget for the health services, I would welcome it as well.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Where is she? She has gone missing.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I would prefer to have it all simultaneously and to direct the pressure where it is deserved. A situation cannot be allowed to perpetuate whereby a Minister avoids any accountability-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has the Deputy a query on promised legislation? If not, he should allow the business to proceed.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----and uses every other platform to promote her position. We need to know what she is planning and threatening in real terms in respect of our health services.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's co-operation would be helpful.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question on legislation.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we have it, please?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I cannot pinpoint any specific legislation, but the Taoiseach and the then Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment were written to earlier this year by one municipal authority in my constituency. It highlighted the fact that a company involved in the poultry sector had created significant redundancies across its workforce.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Have we promised legislation in this area?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In the busy period leading up to Christmas, it flew in significant numbers of workers from outside the European Union.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Have we promised legislation in this area?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking whether there is promised legislation. Legislation has been requested. Has any consideration been given to an indigenous workforce-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This matter can be pursued via parliamentary questions.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----being ignored in order-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can I have the Deputy's co-operation?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am only looking for co-operation.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have allowed the Deputy considerable latitude. If he wishes to pursue the matter, he should do so by way of a parliamentary question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I was pursuing it.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is entirely inappropriate to raise this matter in such a manner on the Order of Business.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Indeed it is not because the whole matter is going to be repeated in the run up to Christmas.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy indicated to me that he had a query on promised legislation. Could we address that point, please?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has consideration been given to legislation to close off a loophole whereby long-experienced workers who have been made redundant are being replaced by aeroplane loads of workers recruited in Estonia?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must resume his seat or pursue the matter via parliamentary question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is a reasonable question.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Not on the Order of Business.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should get up off his seat and answer the question.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have other ways to elicit information, such as via parliamentary questions.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They are still flying in from somewhere. I am asking-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is out of order on the Order of Business.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not out of order.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin should submit a parliamentary question if he wishes to get that information.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is a debate for County Louth as well.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Respect the question. It is reasonable. The Taoiseach did not respect the inquiry in the first instance.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Chair decides proceedings here, not Deputy Ó Caoláin.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach kicked it to touch.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy had a very good innings.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin does not decide proceedings here. The Ceann Comhairle does.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has it well sewn up.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy knows a lot about it.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Last week, the House discussed Second Stage of legislation on education that will give effect to the VEC community national schools. We had less than three hours in total, but the Bill is not on this week's Order Paper. Since the Tánaiste is in the Chamber, when are we likely to see the Bill return to the House?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I believe it will probably be the week after next.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Taoiseach.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister for Finance is proposing to have a questions and answers session tomorrow on the banking statements, but it will only last one hour. Given the large number of Members from all sides of the House who have contributed on the debate, will the Taoiseach consider providing a minimum of two hours, seeing as how a number of important changes have occurred since the Minister made his statement on banking? As the Taoiseach stated, the Government has identified that the €31 billion in promissory notes in respect of Anglo Irish Banks and the other institutions are to be treated as a "mortgage". That was the Taoiseach's word. This means we will have €1.5 billion in interest per year for ten years.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy cannot have a debate on the matter at this time on the Order of Business.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is a major change in the budgetary arithmetic for the next ten years. That €1.5 billion in interest will go into Government costs-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will convene for the Order of Business tomorrow. The Deputy can raise the matter in that context.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Okay. The second change since the Minister's statement-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The order will provide for tomorrow's arrangements.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----is that the former chief executive of Anglo Irish Bank has found refuge in the US.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton is being disrespectful to the Chair. Will she resume her seat, please?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Is the Government agreeable to the Minister taking the questions and answers session for two hours, given the importance of the banking issue to the-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy revisit the matter on tomorrow's Order of Business?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I want to know whether the Government will consider providing two hours for a questions and answers session, given the importance of the banking issue to the formation of the budget and developments since the Minister initially spoke on the matter.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is a proposal for part of tomorrow's business. It can be dealt with on the Order of Business at that point.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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For clarity, the House agreed there would be questions and answers at the end of the debate.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes. I have indicated the proposal can be raised on tomorrow's Order of Business. This is Tuesday, tomorrow is Wednesday and we can deal with it then.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is quite in order on the Order of Business for-----
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The matter has been raised in the House approximately four times since the decision was made. It is quite in order for Deputies to inquire about the length of a time for a debate that has been decided upon.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I indicated to Deputy Burton that she should raise the matter on the Order of Business tomorrow when the order is tabled.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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That is not the point. We are seeking agreement in advance of the order. It has not been debated by the Whips because we could not discuss it in advance of the debate's conclusion.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It will be decided tomorrow when the Taoiseach tables the proposal.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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A dangerous feud has broken out between three eastern European gangs in the Cork region that are operating as bogus charity organisations.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This matter is inappropriate for the Order of Business.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I will just continue.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is completely out of order.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I advise the Deputy to submit a parliamentary question on the matter if he wishes to pursue it.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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It relates to the groups operating as charity organisations because enabling legislation has not been passed by the House.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy pursue the matter via a parliamentary question to the Minister?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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He is asking about legislation.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I am asking about legislation. It is very simple. If the Ceann Comhairle listened, he would hear it. The groups are operating in the absence of legislation passed by the House, namely, the Charities Act 2009, sections 2 and 3 of which provide for the setting up of a charities register and a charities regulator. These provisions make it an offence for any company or group to represent itself as a charity and heavy penalties were to be brought. The legislation was passed last year, but it has not been enabled. Criminal gangs-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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To get a detailed response to this inquiry, a parliamentary question should be submitted to the appropriate Minister. That is the way to go.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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-----in Cork are fire-bombing one another because the penalties are not in place. When will the legislation be enabled in full and these criminal gangs brought to task?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The commencement of legislation is in order.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It is secondary legislation.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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When will the commencement order be made?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will have to revert to the Deputy.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I am concerned about the long-standing promise to introduce legislation on banning corporate donations. I had hoped to ask my question in the presence of the Minister, Deputy Gormley, or any Green Party Minister, but we have yet another day without a sign of a Green Party Member in the House.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is doing a raffle.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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What is the Taoiseach's intention as regards the promise to ban corporate donations?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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He was present earlier.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gormley was taking questions today, I understand, for over an hour and a bit. It would probably have been an opportunity to ask him directly. The issue is a commitment in the programme for Government, which is being prepared for.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I asked what the Taoiseach's exact intention was. Does he intend legislating and when can we expect the legislation?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The legislation will be brought to the House as soon as it is approved by the Government.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I asked whether the Taoiseach intends legislating.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Of course. Legislation would be necessary for that commitment to be dealt with, so it would involve legislating.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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That is not what I asked. I asked whether the Taoiseach intends legislating to ban corporate donations.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the commitment in the programme for Government as I understand it.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It is a "Yes" or "No" question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. I have explained to Deputy Shortall. Is she still standing?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Yes. Will the Taoiseach answer "Yes" or "No"? Does he intend legislating to outlaw corporate donations?
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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He can answer however he likes.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, I will answer the questions to the best of my ability in whatever way I wish and in whatever capacity I can, if that is okay with her. I am sorry, but is the Deputy still standing?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Give us an answer.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When is she returning to her seat?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Shortall should resume her seat.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Thanks. As I said, the programme for Government commitment relates to that area. It will probably require legislation. I am not the line Minister. If a question is put down, the Deputy will get the update of where things are. I am sure it will be brought forward as quickly as possible. It is being prepared.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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You are the Taoiseach and I asked you about promised legislation-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Shortall has had a detailed response.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I asked when we might expect to see the Bill.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Shortall, please resume your seat. You have got a response to the inquiry about the legislation. You must resume your seat.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I asked a question.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Shortall, resume your seat. You are out of order. I call Deputy Jan O'Sullivan.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Do you think the Minister, Deputy Gormley, will walk on this one?
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Why would he?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot have this. The Deputy is provoking a debate on the matter at this stage.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I am looking for an answer. When can we expect-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy made an inquiry about legislation and the Taoiseach responded.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I did not get an answer.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Shortall, you are completely out of order on the Order of Business. I ask you to resume your seat and allow your party colleague-----
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I am asking a question. I am not out of order.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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You asked several questions in the past few minutes and got a response to them. Resume your seat or I shall ask you to leave the House.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Resume your seat or leave the House.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Stagg, resume your seat for a moment. Deputy Shortall, you had an inquiry about legislation in a particular area and the Taoiseach responded to you.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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If you wish to pursue the matter you must find a different way. I call Deputy O'Sullivan.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I raise a point of order. Deputies are entitled to ask when legislation will be brought forward.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes. I have respected that right.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I know the Ceann Comhairle is not responsible for the answers but that question was not answered. That is why Deputy Shortall was persisting in seeking to get that answer. It is in order to do so.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I suggest she pursue it through a different avenue.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise the question of the national children's hospital in the Adjournment debate tonight. I agree with those speakers who stated the appropriate way to deal with this issue is in a question and answer session. I ask the Taoiseach that we should have that opportunity, with the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, present in the House. I ask also that the Minister attend the Adjournment debate and respond because she never does. It is vital that she attends on this important issue-----
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I also have a question on promised legislation. The budgetary process and the Finance Bill will come before the House in the coming month or so. However, today the Minister for Health and Children pre-empted that process by promising cuts of up to €1 billion in health services. Was she speaking on behalf of the Government when she came out-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy O'Sullivan is out of order.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Is the Minister anticipating the Government's plans?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There will be a question and answer session tomorrow.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sure there will be an opportunity for the Deputy to ask that question.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Is the Minister doing whatever she feels like or is this stood over-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, resume your seat.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I want to know if the Fianna Fáil and Green Party Members of the Cabinet stand over the Minister for Health and Children-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is out of order on the Order of Business. Deputy O'Sullivan, please resume your seat or leave the House
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The health services will not be able to continue.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, you must resume your seat or leave the House.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I am entitled to ask-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's query is not on promised legislation. There are so many other ways to raise this matter and now is not the appropriate time. Please resume your seat and I will move on. I call Deputy Bernard Durkan.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle cannot take-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are losing any latitude that is extended to individual Members on the Order of Business. It is out of order to ask the question at this time.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I raise a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle. This is the second or third time during the course of exchanges on the Order of Business where Labour Party Deputies have asked perfectly legitimate questions, in one case concerning when legislation would be produced and, in the case of Deputy O'Sullivan, a question on how a Minister could be on the public air waves announcing what is, in essence, a budgetary measure before the Estimates and budgetary process have been completed. Those are legitimate questions. It would be better to hear out the question and allow the Taoiseach answer it rather than try to rule it out of order.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are so many other ways to ask that question. I am sure there will be ample opportunity tomorrow.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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It concerns promised legislation, a Cheann Comhairle.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are moving on. I call Deputy Durkan.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I raise two issues. In the warm glow of co-operation, collegiality and transparency now emanating from the Government towards the Opposition benches-----
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Do not frighten us all.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----and in the light of those approaches, will the Taoiseach give an instruction to his Ministers, with particular reference to a few who deliberately attempt to avoid answering parliamentary questions at every opportunity-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This has been raised many times before.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is not much sense in love-bombing the Opposition-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan, you are out of order.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----and, at the same time, withholding information.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan, resume your seat please.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What will happen then?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will move on with the business of the House.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, the people of Kildare sent me here for a different purpose.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will have to find a different way to raise this matter. When the Chair is on his feet, the Deputy is expected to sit down in his seat.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I raise a point of order.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I do not wish to delay the House. There is a simple way to deal with this. Will the Taoiseach give an undertaking to the Members opposite that we will be able to get answers to the specific questions we ask and thereby avoid this practice that has become endemic?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must find another way. He has raised this many times during my time in the Chair. He will have to-----
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is why I appeal to the Ceann Comhairle, in his goodness, to recognise the merit of what I say.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to resume his seat and allow his colleague to speak.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have another question, on promised legislation. In view of the very heavy penalty in legal costs likely to be imposed by the various tribunals, is it intended to bring forward, with some degree of urgency, the legal costs Bill in order to protect the State and all other institutions?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understand it will be introduced next year, as was communicated last week.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I told the Deputy so on Thursday.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Next year is a long time away.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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A week is a long time in politics.
P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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This is the third time I have raised this question in the House. When will the Government ratify the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities to combat discrimination against those with mental health problems? I want a definite answer from the Taoiseach today.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have answered this on a number of occasions. It is on the record of the House.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will explain the situation to the Deputy. Ireland is one of the first countries to have signed that convention, subject to ratification. There will be no undue delay in providing for ratification and it is the Government's intention to do so as quickly as possible, taking into account the need to ensure that all necessary requirements under the convention are being met.
Ireland holds to the common law tradition of not ratifying treaties until it considers that domestic law in general is in conformity with the treaty. Therefore, although Ireland has not yet ratified it this does not mean progress is not being made in meeting the requirements of the convention. It means that when we do ratify, the process of implementing the provisions of the convention will be enhanced. A number of other countries have decided to ratify first and then deal with the implications for legislation and policies which could prove to be problematic for them in time regarding the implementation of the convention.
In many respects, the national disability strategy comprehends many of the provisions of the convention. A group has developed a programme on which work is progressing to address the matters that need to be aligned with the convention. One of the key requirements prior to ratification of this convention is the mental capacity Bill which, as the Deputy knows, is due to be introduced to the House. The detailed provisions of the Bill are at an advanced stage of drafting and it is expected that it will be published in the current Dáil session. Work on what is involved by way of implementation of the various other provisions in the convention - which are extensive - continues in the relevant Departments.
P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I would appreciate if the Taoiseach would give me in a written reply what he has just outlined to the Dáil on the matter.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That might be a good way-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is on the record of the House.
Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I speak in the interest of consensus, and considering the fright the financial spokespersons got yesterday during their visit to the Department of Finance. I understand the Department of Defence signed a contract last week for two offshore patrol vessels at a cost of €85 million. While there is, on the open market-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy knows this is the Order of Business and is devoted to queries on legislation.
Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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This is about consensus and trying to save money.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I know but this is not Question Time.
Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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On the open market there were three vessels for sale, at €90 million. There was a possibility of the Department of Defence, hence the Department of Finance, getting three offshore patrol vessels for the price of two. I want to ask the Taoiseach whether that was checked out by the Department.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not realistic to expect the Taoiseach to have the detail required for a response to such a question available on the Order of Business.
Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I am referring to three vessels with superior specifications to two that were ordered.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I suggest the Deputy submits a parliamentary question to the Minister for Defence, and I am sure he will be glad to reply.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach wants to answer.