Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 6: To ask the Minister for Justice and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to recent figures from the World Health Organisation that Ireland has the highest homicide rate of young men in Western Europe and the second highest rate for knife killings; the steps he will take to deal with this situation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35363/10]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The report by the World Health Organisation relies primarily on data from a variety of medical and health related sources across Europe. In the case of Ireland, the data comes, essentially, from the CSO's medical and health related data, rather than from crime statistics. Statistics on deaths are compiled from data supplied on the medical cause of death certificate completed by medical practitioners and coroners. The report acknowledges that there are limitations in the data used and notes that since countries' systems and practices for recording and processing health data vary, the availability and accuracy of the data reported to WHO may vary. Any interpretations of the report should take account of these factors.

The CSO's recorded crime statistics show that the number of cases of murder and manslaughter involving a knife declined from 32 in 2007 to 19 in 2009. In the first half of this year there were eight such cases. The CSO crime statistics showed a 35% decrease in the overall number of cases murder and manslaughter last year and the year before, compared to 2007. I am glad this trend has continued in the current year and the figures for the second quarter of 2010 show a 20% decrease in the number of murders compared to the same period in 2009.

While this trend is welcome, I and the Government are concerned at the incidence of homicides among young people, especially involving knives. Legislation on the use of knives and similar weapons is extremely robust and heavy penalties are in place. Following the enactment of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, there is a maximum penalty of five years for possessing a knife in a public place and the Garda Síochána has an extended power of search without warrant.

The WHO report highlights the misuse of alcohol as a factor in homicides. The Government has also provided increased powers to the Garda to deal with public order problems arising form the misuse of alcohol, including powers under the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008 to confiscate alcohol. In 2009, the Garda Commissioner and I launched a knife awareness campaign to inform and educate young people on the dangers of carrying knives with the aim of reducing the number of incidents of knife crime. The campaign targeted a young male audience with messages delivered through role models in the sporting and media worlds and incorporated a series of local roadshow events as well a dedicated website and a presence on social networking sites.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Instead of rubbishing the WHO statistics, the Minister might be better employed telling me what he will do about that organisation's findings which state we have the highest homicide rate among young men in western Europe and the second highest for knife killings. Is it not the case that there were eight knife killings in 2003, some 21 in 2005 and 37 in 2007? It is a shocking report. If the Minister is challenging the validity of the figures, have he or his Department taken any steps to complain to the WHO that it has got its statistics wrong? Does the Minister agree it is absolutely shocking to find a reputable organisation such as the WHO drawing attention to the fact that Ireland is at the top of the league in western Europe for homicides among young males and second highest for killings by knife?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I do not debunk the WHO statistics. I merely pointed out what was in its report and the fact that the statistics are compiled from medical records. The Central Statistics Office has compiled figures in regard to murder and manslaughter on the basis of dedicated crime statistics. Although the Deputy quoted the level of killings, the figure for this type of killing for 2007 was 32. He did not continue to state, as I did-----

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Minister did it for me. I did not want to repeat it.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----that there has been a reduction since 2007 based on the crime statistics. It is the case there is a level of crime in this regard which nobody in this society wants. That is the reason I introduced the specific gangland crime and handgun ban legislation, about which the Deputy's party was somewhat watery.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Some Deputies wish to speak. I call on Deputy Rabbitte, to be followed by Deputy McGrath.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It is not about gangland killings although we can have that debate if the Minister wishes to have it. There is casual resort by young people in the community to the use of knives. I already spoke to the Minister about a situation in an area of my constituency during the week when the residents were up in arms about the absence of policing and the difficulties people have, feeling they have been thrown to the wolves and that nobody in authority cares. We should not confuse this with the gangland assassinations of big-time crooks. We are talking about the casual resort to the use of knives by young males. What does the Minister think he can do about it?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The WHO figures refer to a cohort of people aged between 19 and 35. A substantial number of people in that cohort who were killed during the period in question were killed not as a result of knife crime, but as a result of gangland crime. It is wrong to say this has nothing to do with gangland crime.

Concerning knife crime, when I became Minister, we looked very closely at the epidemic of knife crime which was taking place in the UK and as a result I introduced legislation that increased the relevant penalty from one year to five years in the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009. In addition, I sat down with the Garda Síochána and as a result it brought forward a substantial knife awareness campaign directed at that type of person who is likely to bring a knife out at night.

I accept fully what the Deputy said regarding certain geographic areas of Dublin and around the country. However, much work has been done by the Garda in youth diversion projects in those areas to try to assist young people and prevent them getting into crime.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will facilitate the other two Deputies. I call on Deputy McGrath.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Regarding legislation to deal with knife killings, does the Minister believe that legislation which is already on the Statute Book has been implemented fully by gardaí on the ground? Has the knife awareness campaign run by the Department of Justice and Law Reform been effective? What is the Minister's impression of it?

In regard to the criminal justice system, is the Minister aware there is a significant section of society that firmly believes the criminal justice system has let them down? I refer in particular to areas of serious economic disadvantage where major assaults take place of which many go unreported, and major anti-social activity. The entire community believes that nobody cares.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is widening the scope of the question and has asked three questions. I ask him to be brief.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Regarding the link between knife crime and small local anti-social activity, what proposals does the Minister have to do something about it?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As to the effectiveness of the campaign, only time will tell. Obviously, knife crime continues. There is a problem with a knife. In the Department we examined whether there was any way of banning knives as offensive weapons. The fact is that a knife from any kitchen press is a dangerous implement. An innocent knife used for cutting bread can become an offensive weapon within seconds. It would be impractical, therefore, to ban knives or, as somebody suggested, to ban "sharp pointed" knives in this country. We considered increasing sentences which would send out a very strong signal. To the best of my knowledge that legislation is being drawn up.

As a representative of an urban area, I can understand the issue to which the Deputy referred, namely, that some people believe the criminal justice system has left them behind. There are the 100 youth diversion projects throughout the country, mostly in urban disadvantaged areas. These are successful as I know from my own constituency. There are people outside such activities, however, and no matter what one does with them, they will still indulge in crime. The campaign was designed to try to suggest to young people that it is not cool to put a knife in one's pocket when one goes out at night. The minute a person has a knife and is known to have one others on the opposite side of a gang will also bring a knife.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I want to facilitate Deputy Carey before we move on.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The disturbing reality is that it has become the norm for some groups of young people to carry knives. I welcome the Minister's initiatives to bring about an awareness campaign but will he confirm to the House whether that campaign will continue this year, next year and the year following? Can the Minister confirm to the House whether that campaign will continue this year, next year and the year after? We need gardaí explaining to young people in the schools the difficulties with knives. We need to break that cycle, the norm as regards young people carrying knives. I should like to see much more action in that regard.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the continuance of the awareness campaign, my understand is that it is ongoing, but I will relay the Deputy's comments on the need for gardaí to liaise with schools, etc. I understand that this was part of the campaign but I shall bring his comments to the attention of the Garda Commissioner.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Why does the Minister say that the WHO drawing its information from medical records could be inaccurate?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I would hazard a guess that a more accurate figure may be gleaned from the CSO crime statistics rather than medical certificates. Sometimes a death by knife could be recorded, for instance, but this might not necessarily be a crime. It could refer to an injury that occurred accidentally. That is one instance, perhaps, of a more accurate gauge of crime statistics.