Dáil debates

Thursday, 10 June 2010

10:30 am

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We begin with the resumed Second Stage debate on the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2010. Deputy Durkan is in possession.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, this morning I circulated a motion of no confidence in the Taoiseach. I wish to explain why I circulated that motion. Yesterday saw the publication of two independent expert reports into the causes and the failures of the banking situation in Ireland. This Government has relied on independent and expert advice on a series of occasions in recent years-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must advise the Deputy that we are bound by-----

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not propose to speak to the motion.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must be very brief. We are bound by the order of last Thursday to proceed with the business as agreed.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that we are bound by order, and I know the order can only be varied by a proposal from the Government. That is what I wish to address. These two independent reports point the finger of blame directly at the Government and directly, as a consequence, at the person who was driving fiscal and economic policy in this country for a number of years, namely, the Taoiseach as then Minister for Finance. The situation is that if similar reports were produced for any major company in the land, the chief executive officer would be dismissed forthwith and have to resign. We have been told-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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With all due respect, we cannot have a debate on this matter at this stage.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have come in here for a second day when this House is expected not to speak about what everybody else in the country is talking about. The consequences of the actions, or inaction, of the Taoiseach as Minister for Finance have been that hundreds of thousands of people are now paying the price, with €20,000 of debt for every family, increasing unemployment-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I was quite willing to allow the Deputy to make a few brief remarks.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They will be very brief. This morning on Pat Kenny's radio programme the Minister for Transport said that people can make their own judgment. He said we can blame the Taoiseach for leading us into this - these are the words of the Minister for Transport.

The position is that the precedent by long convention in this House is that when a motion of no confidence is set down it is countered by a motion of confidence by the Government. I want to know from the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, or the Tánaiste - whomever is representing the Government this morning - when it is intended to move a motion of confidence in the Taoiseach. I challenge the Government to move that motion today so that we can deal with it.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Government does not have confidence in the Taoiseach.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is a situation where the people of our country have been misled time and again by deception, which continues to this day.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Some co-operation from Deputy Kenny would be much appreciated.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for letting me say my few words, and I will make a final point. I listened this morning to the Minister for Finance who clearly said that the Government has to bear primary responsibility. He went on to speak about the sociopolitical context in which this happened. That sociopolitical context was generated by the Government within the spires of the Galway tent. The sociopolitical context was this - that if one said anything about the way the country was moving, such as when Deputy Bruton pointed out time and again that the alarm bells were ringing, one was either guilty of national sabotage or told to go and commit suicide.

Photo of Dermot AhernDermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny spoke out of both sides of his mouth.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is against that background that I have no confidence in the Taoiseach-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We agreed the Deputy's comments would be brief.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is impossible to have belief and trust in the Government or to know whether it is speaking the truth. These reports are a damning indictment of the guilt of the Taoiseach, as Minister for Finance.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must move on to today's business.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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For that reason, I challenge the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, the Tánaiste or the other Ministers to tell me when it is proposed to take a motion of confidence in the Taoiseach so that we can deal with these reports of guilt in this House where we should be allowed to debate such issues.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Government does not have confidence in the Taoiseach.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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While the Minister for Finance points out that he was not in office at the time, he says the Government should accept primary responsibility while at the same time excluding the Government from the terms of reference of the commission of inquiry. I think the Minister was saying this morning that the country would make a profit out of this. He forgot to speak about the €22 billion that has gone into Anglo Irish Bank.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We need to move on.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I challenge the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, to tell me when it is proposed to move a motion of confidence in the Taoiseach. I challenge the Government to take that motion in this House today.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Government has no confidence and no authority.

Photo of P J SheehanP J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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What about Anglo Irish Bank?

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have called Deputy Gilmore.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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There is a motion of no confidence in the Taoiseach before the House. The normal practice when a motion of no confidence, in the Taoiseach or the Government, is tabled is that there is a counter motion of confidence from the Government. Motions of confidence or no confidence have always taken precedence over all other business being transacted in the House. I want to establish from the Tánaiste, first, when we are going to see the Government's counter motion, which we can expect? Second, I want to know if, in line with precedent, the taking of a motion of confidence will take precedence over the conduct of all other business.

We are in the unusual situation that the Government decided last week to order business for the House this week so that the House would not be in a position, as the Government thought, to discuss the damning reports on the banking crisis which it had in its possession at the time it moved its motion last week. The reports on the banking crisis were delivered to the Government on 31 May. The Government came in here last Thursday and put a motion before the House to sanitise the business for this week so that the representatives of the people could not discuss here in the Dáil the contents of the reports-----

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We agreed that the Deputy's comments would be brief.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I will be brief. We were not to discuss the contents of the banking reports which so damningly criticise the performance of the Government and, in particular, of the Taoiseach over a period of time. The Government hatched those reports for ten days and is not allowing any discussion here in the Dáil. It then tried to news manage the release of the reports yesterday, which backfired spectacularly on the Government, to the credit of the press in this country which was not going to be treated to the kind of spin and news management that was clearly intended. We are now in the unusual situation that the two reports, one of which is from the Governor of the Central Bank, which criticises in very damning terms the performance of the Government and of the Taoiseach, can be discussed everywhere in the country except in the House of Parliament.

I have asked two questions on a point of order. One is to the Tánaiste. When are we going to see the Government counter-motion on the motion of confidence? The second question is to the Ceann Comhairle. Will he follow the precedent that has existed in this House from the foundation of the State, which is that a motion of confidence in the Taoiseach or a motion of confidence in the Government, takes precedence over all other business being conducted in the House? That motion of confidence, in my view, must be taken and debated today.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will deal with the latter point before I call on Deputy Ó Snodaigh. A motion of no confidence does not automatically take precedence over the business ordered for this week, unless the Government otherwise orders it to be taken.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we have some silence for the Deputy in possession. I ask Deputy Burton if we could have silence for Deputy Ó Snodaigh, please.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is a waste of time. I was brought in here and I have to wait.

Last week the Ceann Comhairle indicated to the House-----

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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There is not a single Green Party Deputy in the House.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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They are holding their noses as they digest this report. They are in conclave.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----that if there was any emergency the Dáil could change the order of the day. Yesterday, we had a protracted debate on this and as yet, we still do not know what facility exists for a change in the order of the House to take the question of a motion of confidence. I raised this last week at the Whips' meeting when a proposal was made to have the sham sitting of the House. I proposed, at that stage, that emergency legislation or emergency debates might be required and yesterday's report indicates there is an emergency debate required. Everybody else, bar this House, is having the debate on the report which seems to indicate there is no confidence in the Government. That debate should be taking place in this House.

I ask the Ceann Comhairle, under Standing Order 27, to which I referred yesterday, to facilitate us in changing the order of the House so that we can have a debate on this matter and quite a number of other matters which have arisen since the House decided last Thursday, against our better wishes on this side of the House, to have the sitting yesterday and today. I against the Ceann Comhairle how we can order the business to take account of this. The Ceann Comhairle said there would be an opportunity to do so and I ask him to present that opportunity.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We proceed on the basis that the Government proposes and the House disposes. I suggest the consultation process by means of the Whips is the way for any variation. I call the Tánaiste.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Ceann Comhairle once again to read Standing Order 27.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am not empowered in this matter. The Chair is not empowered in this matter. I graphically set that out yesterday.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Standing Order 27 allows the Ceann Comhairle that power.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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As we all know, the order for this week was set-----

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It can be changed if the Government wishes.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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This Government welcomes the reports that have been published and their assessment of the issues that have arisen.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is frightened to step into the Dáil.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy Shatter.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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They have drawn attention to significant areas which require further consideration. These matters are being sent to the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service for discussion and assessment tomorrow. It was the intention of this Government-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Why not publish the terms of reference?

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----that following the discussions at the joint committee, there would be a full debate in this House.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It was not the Opposition Whips.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I reject what the Opposition is purporting to do, which is to score points and detract from a proper debate in this House.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, could we have respect for the Tánaiste.

Photo of Mary CoughlanMary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is the Government's intention to bring forward a motion of full confidence in the Taoiseach on Tuesday afternoon.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are not going to have a further debate at this stage. The House has heard what the Tánaiste has stated that there will be a debate on a confidence motion next week.

Photo of Tom HayesTom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Did the Tánaiste check with the de Valera committee?

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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When is the Lemass committee meeting?

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Under the Constitution, the Government's authority to govern is based on its ability to command a majority in this House.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is anticipating the debate next week.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I ask the Ceann Comhairle to please hear my point of order. There is a motion of confidence which challenges that the Government has a majority in the House. We do not know if Government backbenchers, who have been distancing themselves from the Taoiseach for some time, are willing to come in and vote support in him. We do not know if the Green Party will vote support in him.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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All those points can be made next week.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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We do not know if the Independent Deputies will vote support in him. The Constitution is very clear that votes in the House are on the basis of those present and voting. There is a challenge today, not next Tuesday. The motion of confidence is tabled today. The challenge is that the Government does not enjoy the support of a majority of Deputies in the House today. I submit to the Ceann Comhairle that under the Constitution, he is obliged to take that motion today.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have stated the position. A motion of no confidence does not automatically take precedence over the business ordered last week. The order of last Thursday sets down the business for this week and as it stands, no other business can be taken. We will move on to other business.