Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Minister for Justice; Equality and Law Reform his views on extending the remit of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin to cover other dioceses in the country; the position in respect of the Garda investigation into matters arising from the Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19696/10]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy will be aware, the commission's report on the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin was published in November last. The commission is at present examining the Diocese of Cloyne, and the Government extended the commission's term to 30 June to allow this work to be completed.

I am informed by the Garda authorities that the investigations of the assistant commissioner appointed by the Garda Commissioner to examine the findings of the Dublin Archdiocese report relating to the handling of complaints and investigations by both Church and State authorities are ongoing. He will complete his investigations expeditiously with a view to reporting to the Commissioner as early as possible. When he reports to the Commissioner with his recommendations, the Commissioner will consult with the DPP as to what issues arise in the context of criminal liability.

I am informed by my colleague, the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs, that the HSE is currently in the process of completing its audit of Catholic dioceses to ensure that it, as the statutorily responsible body, is fully aware of all cases of clerical child sex abuse known to the church. It is hoped that the HSE will submit its report to the Minister of State in the near future.

Consideration of the results of all these investigations will include consideration of what further action require to be taken, including a possible extension of the Commission's remit.

Bringing the perpetrators to justice, whenever and wherever the abuse occurred, must be the absolute priority. I repeat my call for any person, including members of the clergy, who has knowledge of such abuse to contact the Garda Síochána immediately.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Minister's response is very disappointing in the sense that he has drawn down what was on the word processor from the last time this question was asked. It is exactly the same answer as given in March, except that in March, the Minister told the House that the HSE report would be with the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs by the end of April. He has now changed the answer of March to read, "in the near future". Is it not disappointing, given the gravity of this issue, that so apparent tardy progress, if progress there is at all, is being made?

I ask the Minister specifically to address the question of the investigation of child abuse in the dioceses outside Dublin and Cloyne. Has the Minister read the very courageous remarks of the archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Diarmuid Martin? He has an admirable track record in this regard. Is it not right that more weight ought to be attached to his words when he says it is his view there are powerful forces within the church still covering up the evil of child sexual abuse in this country? Is it not desirable that the Minister would direct there should be sampling, at a minimum, in other dioceses and that this should be tested by the commission of investigation methodology to deal with the problem, as he said he would deal with it when he took the report on Dublin?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, is the line Minister with direct responsibility. The HSE has received details of complaints from all dioceses subject to the audit, the persons against whom the complaints have been made, the information on reporting. The HSE is in the process of cross-referencing this information with the Garda records. The Garda Síochána is fully committed to facilitating this process. It has set up a dedicated team to work on the audit and has the services of an independent consultant. It is also undertaking an audit of 140 religious orders. Like everybody else, I took on board the sentiments expressed by Archbishop Diarmuid Martin. I agree we have to take his words very seriously when he referred to these dark forces. If it is the case there are people within the church authorities who are still railing against the type of new structures put in place by the church authorities, then this is an issue, primarily, for the church authorities to deal with.

The Dublin archdiocese report was a mere sampling of the entire Dublin archdiocese area and yet it took four years to complete. The Cloyne report is now added to that. There is a total of 21 other dioceses. The original idea of taking a sample of cases from Dublin was as an illustration of how the church and the State authorities dealt with these complaints historically. We have learned from Judge Murphy's excellent report and the commission report, that these cases were not well dealt with, in particular by the church. The State authorities, in all fairness, followed up very quickly when these cases were first brought to its attention in the mid-1990s but the church was slow and lethargic in confronting this issue. No decisions are being made with regard to the extension but when the final results of the Cloyne investigation are available, decisions may be made at that stage whether to extend it to the other 21 dioceses. It is best to wait. The Cloyne investigation includes all the cases whereas a sampling was undertaken in Dublin because of the size of the archdiocese.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Will the Minister agree it is deeply troubling that the archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Martin, felt it necessary to go public with the trenchant remarks about dark forces still covering up this evil in our society? What more could one have expected from the archbishop other than going to the top of Croagh Patrick and crying out to the heavens for help? He is saying in black and white that these crimes are still being covered up. Is this not an argument for the Minister to act, to pick a diocese like Raphoe, which is reported to have been rotten with this problem? Some of the cases have been ventilated in public. For example, why does the Minister not take his courage in his hands and direct that the particular diocese would be investigated, to support the plea that I take Dr. Martin to be making to the civil authorities?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Any extension of the investigation would involve costs to the Exchequer. The cost to date of the commission on the Dublin archdiocese is in the region of €4.4 million. This does not include third party costs which will follow. The Cloyne investigation costs are in the region of €1 million to date. The question of extending it to 21 other dioceses or even the diocese of Raphoe would incur additional expense. I will not make a decision here on the floor of the House in that regard; it is a matter for Government to decide. As Minister I have ultimate responsibility for policy on justice matters. On the publication of the Murphy report I indicated to the Garda Síochána in a general way that the Government was very worried - I think I spoke for everyone in this country - about the way in which the church in particular had dealt with cases historically. For that reason the Garda Commissioner appointed an Assistant Commissioner with responsibility for reviewing all the cases across the country and not just a sample from Dublin or anywhere else. I note Dr. Martin's comments about the dark forces. It is the responsibility of this House and of the Minister to ensure that those people who are responsible are brought to justice as soon as possible and without delay. The focus of these examinations is not to find people guilty but rather to find out how the church and State authorities responded. We already know that the church in particular and the State authorities to a lesser extent did not respond in those sample cases in Dublin. We should now move on to prosecuting those people. The responsibility in that respect rests with the church authorities who know these people and where they are. Dr. Martin and anyone else with information should come forward with that information to the State authorities so that those people can be prosecuted.