Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the cost that accrued to his Department in respect of the Moriarty tribunal during 2008; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48411/09]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the procedures in place in his Department for dealing with requests for files and information by tribunals of inquiry; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48412/09]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach the cost accruing to date to his Department arising from the work of the Moriarty tribunal up to the end of 2009; if an estimate is available of the expected final costs; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1466/10]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach if there is a projected total and final cost to his Department of the Moriarty tribunal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3464/10]

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 7, inclusive, together.

The cost of the Moriarty tribunal to my Department in 2008 was €4.01 million. The total expenditure for my Department from the establishment of the tribunal in September 1997 to 31 December 2009 was €38.27 million. The sole member of the tribunal, Mr. Justice Moriarty, has not yet addressed third-party costs. Until that is done, we cannot estimate the overall cost of the tribunal with any accuracy. The tribunal secretariat has on many occasions over the years told my Department that any attempt by the tribunal to quantify third-party costs would lead to conclusions being drawn and suppositions being made which could infringe the rights of witnesses and impinge on the independence of the tribunal. The Comptroller and Auditor General's Special Report on Tribunals of Inquiry, in attempting to establish some estimate of the overall cost of the Moriarty tribunal, gave various ranges for third-party costs but stressed that the figures were subject to many caveats and contingencies.

From time to time there have been requests to my Department for files and information from various tribunals. The Department has co-operated fully with all such requests and will continue to do so in the future. Normally such requests are received by the Secretary General of my Department and assigned to the appropriate departmental officials by him. Appropriate replies subsequently issue when the requests have been considered and any relevant information or files identified.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When I raised this matter with the Taoiseach some weeks ago the information available to him was that the report of the Moriarty tribunal was expected to be published in March. Recent announcements suggest this may not be the case. Has the Taoiseach been informed as to whether additional witnesses are to be called? If so, does that mean the tribunal report may well be delayed for a further undetermined period? Has he been officially told that other witnesses are to be called which will delay the publication date of the report?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The tribunal is independent in the conduct of its proceedings, including the selection and timing of witnesses' appearances before it. I understand the tribunal has called two additional State witnesses and has written to the affected parties informing them of the intention to hear additional witnesses from the Attorney General's office. As of this morning no date has been set for the hearing.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It will delay the tribunal for a further period if those two witnesses are called and give evidence that may give rise to further questions. The final cost of the tribunal has been estimated to be approximately €100 million, including third party legal costs. Can the Taoiseach indicate the scale of the legal fees that have been paid to lawyers for the tribunals in respect of what has been a very long time? If he does not have this information to hand, he might forward it to me.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understand from the tribunal that it will not be able to give a timescale for completion of its report until after the witnesses have been heard and their evidence assessed. I have no intention of commenting in any way on the work of the tribunal. As for questions on the cost and duration of the tribunal, tribunals undoubtedly are an expensive way of carrying out investigations. This is the reason the Government has introduced the Tribunals of Inquiry Bill that is before the House at present. As for the length of time the tribunal has taken, I should point out it has published the first part of its report. Moreover, I believe the tribunal itself would point out that it has been the subject to legal challenge, which also has taken time. It is not possible to give an accurate estimate of the final overall costs until third party costs have been assessed. As I stated, the cost of the tribunal to this Department to the end of 2009 was €38.27 million and the Comptroller and Auditor General's report indicated that the cost to other State bodies up to the end of 2007 was €10.9 million.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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When I last questioned the Taoiseach on this issue on 4 November, he informed me that it was the sole member's intention that the report would be ready for publication in early January. On the following day, 5 November, an article appeared in The Irish Times that quoted a source with knowledge of the tribunal's affairs which stated that the early January date was unrealistic and that it was not expected that it would report by early January. Can the Taoiseach now give the House an indication as to when the tribunal might report?

There have been reports that the Moriarty tribunal has now agreed to call new witnesses from the Office of the Attorney General. As the latter office reports to this House through the Taoiseach at Taoiseach's Question Time, what is the Taoiseach's information on the witnesses who are likely to be called from the Office of the Attorney General? How many witnesses has he been informed are likely to be called and what is his estimate of the likely length of time this further calling of witnesses and hearing of their evidence will take?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have no idea how long it will take. That is a matter for the tribunal and I do not comment on the working of the tribunal at all for obvious reasons. I understand the tribunal has called two additional State witnesses, that the affected parties have been written to informing them of the intention to hear additional witnesses from the Attorney General's office and as I understand it as of this morning, no date has been set for the hearing. However, I am not in a position to comment further on how long that might take. That evidence must be given, adduced and assessed and thereafter it will be a matter for the sole member.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Again, when Members last addressed these questions in November, I made reference to the fact that the previous July, it had been indicated at the Committee of Public Accounts that the Moriarty tribunal had paid €8.5 million each to two barristers working in the tribunal. I described such payments as an obscenity and asked the Taoiseach the reason that the reduction in fees signalled in 2004 had not proceeded over the five years up to that point last July or up to Question Time in November. In his extraordinary reply the Taoiseach stated, "The strong view was that the imposition of the reduced rate could lead to the departure of counsel to the jeopardy of the money already expended on the work of the tribunal". At what point in time and by what means did senior counsel or someone on their behalf either threaten or seek to bluff in respect of how they might respond in the event of the introduction of a reduction in fees? Would the Taoiseach not have thought it appropriate either to face down the threat or to call their bluff? As for the argument or view that these senior counsel would walk, resulting in an absolute loss of all the years of effort employed and putting in jeopardy all that already had been expended in the tribunal up to that point in time, I do not believe it holds any water. Where stands this matter at present?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Government acted on advice at the time. This issue has been dealt with a number of times at Question Time and I do not wish to go through the same questions as the same replies are available now as I have put on the record of the House previously. The Deputy is aware that anything the Government does in this situation that might have an effect like the one mentioned would lead to it being accused of seeking to orchestrate something that was not its intention. It was a question of being obliged to deal with the situation that arose. An error did arise as I have explained in detail in previous comments. It has been raised at the Committee of Public Accounts with the Accounting Officer concerned and has been explained there as well. I have nothing further to add except to state that the Government is anxious that this matter should be brought to a conclusion as quickly as possible. However, that is a matter for the sole member and I do not comment on the workings of the tribunal beyond that for fear of being misinterpreted.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are coming to the end and I call Deputy Lowry briefly.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary North, Independent)
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I wish to ask one question of the Taoiseach. How can the Taoiseach or any Member of this House justify what ultimately will be the multi-million cost of this tribunal? I have 13 years of experience in dealing with this tribunal and have come to the opinion that this quasi-judicial legal farce has been out of control for years. The Oireachtas has stood back from it and has allowed it to continue. Although Members this morning have been discussing the economy being in tatters, they are still observing and sanctioning daily payments to senior counsel, including Saturdays and Sunday, on which expenses have been drawn. Were the Taoiseach to examine the invoices going into his Department from the tribunal, he would see that after 13 years, senior counsel are paid €2,500, now reduced to €2,250, per day. Moreover, in some instances they are claiming for Saturdays and Sundays. How can the Government justify such expenditure of public funds on an ongoing basis, while at the same time it has reduced social welfare payments, is cutting the public service pay bill, has removed medical cards from people who deserve them and is reducing the health services and funding for hospitals?

In respect of the costs, how could the officials in the Department of the Taoiseach who are responsible for the tribunal allow senior barristers for the tribunal, who now are multimillionaires on foot of their work there, to submit bills that were incorrect and which were overstated by €250 per day, amounting to millions of euro-----

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, you could be entering uncharted water on this matter.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary North, Independent)
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----- without claiming it back? Why was this money not claimed back from these barristers? Were social welfare recipients involved, they would have been harassed and hounded to ensure the moneys were repaid. I have come to the conclusion that the officials in the Department of the Taoiseach have allowed this tribunal to become untouchables, particularly the barristers involved.

I also wish to correct the record. The witnesses from the Attorney General's office were not called back by Mr. Justice Moriarty. They were called back because he was forced to do so, as otherwise, he would have a High Court hearing this morning.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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With the introduction of the new Tribunals of Inquiry Bill and the Commissions of Investigation Act, which we have passed, there is an acknowledgement in the House that we need to deal with matters of urgent public importance in ways alternative to what has been the case under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921.

I am aware that Deputy Lowry has close involvement with and knowledge of these matters and that they have gone on for a very long time. I make the case for the Government, in that we wish to see these matters brought to a conclusion as quickly as possible in the interests of everybody. In future, this House needs to consider carefully the question of the use of the 1921 Act, as we have brought forward more modern enactments that can more speedily deal with issues that the Oireachtas may need to have investigated from time to time because they are matters of urgent public importance. In matters of urgent public importance, a length of time is taken because of a range of issues, including challenges that have been made. People are entitled to vindicate their rights in court in respect of any issue that arises based on their legal advice or their own opinion as to how matters should be dealt with.

I make these general points and say that we await finalisation of all of these matters as soon as possible.