Dáil debates
Wednesday, 3 March 2010
Leaders' Questions
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In September 2008 the Taoiseach gave this House and the country two guarantees: that the Government would stabilise the banking system and that it would provide for credit to flow to business. He has failed on both counts and his strategy is in tatters. The banks have been bailed out three times - by the guarantee, by recapitalisation, and by the passing of the National Assets Management Agency Bill - and they are now looking for more. They are about to increase charges and interest rates on variable mortgages. The response from Government has been silence.
In September 2008 the number of people on the live register was 240,000. What is that number today?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I totally reject what is becoming a very irresponsible position from the Deputy Kenny-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Who is talking about irresponsibility?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----with regard to banking policy. I have been reading some of his headlines in the newspapers today.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy certainly keeps his eye on them.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I said there would be a revolution on the streets.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They are writing about the Taoiseach now.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach, without interruption, please.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Had Anglo Irish Bank not been recapitalised last year, it would have lost its banking licence and there would have been a call on the State guarantee. We would have been required to immediately repay €65 billion in funding to the European Central Bank, national central banks and other providers of funds. The State does not have €65 billion in cash lying about, nor could it have raised such funds on the markets in a short period to meet those obligations.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let us be clear about this. Deputy Kenny's position-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We said it should be wound up over seven years.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----that we should not deal with the situation in Anglo Irish Bank and other banks would mean an immediate call on funds to that amount.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It could be done over seven years.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If that is his policy, he is even more foolish than I thought he was.
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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This all happened on the Taoiseach's watch. He was Minister for Finance.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will have the Taoiseach know-----
Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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He is the school bully. He can give it but he cannot take it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have no intention of descending to the level of personal invective.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody can hear the Deputy's rabble rousing.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny, please allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He is the person who said previously in the House that-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----we are not able or qualified to make a judgment. It is beneath contempt.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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He is two thirds the Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the irresponsibility the Deputy is displaying with regard to this issue. I am hoping it is due to ignorance of the facts rather than any considered position-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Fianna Fáil mask just slipped again.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----because if he has considered it and that is his view, he has really gone beyond the beyond.
Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The 450,000 people on the street know who they are voting for.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, we are proceeding on the basis that whoever is on his or her feet is allowed to speak.
Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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How dare he say that. It was a personal insult.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is not on top of a lorry now.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Whoever his friends are, he has let them down.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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If the Taoiseach had any respect for the people of this country he would resign.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Anyone else for the last of the Choc Ices?
The official statistics of the live register for February will be published at 11 a.m. by the CSO.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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He does not know anything.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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However, I understand from the internal figures of the Department of Social and Family Affairs that the end of February figure will show almost no change compared to January. This compares with an increase in February last year of more than 26,000. The live register normally increases in February, so these figures suggest a modest decrease on a seasonally adjusted basis. While unemployment remains at a high level, these figures confirm that the situation is stabilising.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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There is no one left to go on the dole at this stage.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The figures also include nearly 74,000 people who are working part-time and nearly 21,000 people who are signing on to claim credits.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The figure for January was 434,000. This is an appalling failure of the Taoiseach's leadership and his Government.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If he continues to carry on in his personal way, he will be on his own. The people on the street are suffering in enraged silence at the carry-on and incompetence of the Government and what has happened here. A total of 750 jobs are to go at Halifax and 200 at Bitech in Louth, while 260 are at risk at Postbank. Bestseller Retail, with 14 stores and 80 jobs, is to close. At Boston Scientific, 175 hi-tech jobs are to be lost, as well as 170 at Debenhams, while 225 are at risk at Hughes and Hughes.
The Taoiseach's comments indicate no appreciation of the pressure and stress being experienced by thousands of people all over the country every day. When they look at this Cabinet, all they see is talk about jobs for the boys and the girls. If it were not so serious it would be like "Lanigan's Ball". We are led to believe from a news story broken on TV3 that Deputy Cuffe has the political carving knife to the throat of his leader, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. All that is being talked about are well paid and well pensioned jobs, when 434,000 men and women are on the live register because the Government's strategy has failed.
What is going up should be going down. Bank interest rates, unemployment and house repossessions are rising, while loan approvals, business investment and tax receipts are still going down. The Government will never break out of this cycle. Unless jobs and an economic stimulus are a central issue at the Cabinet table, it cannot happen. If the Government continues to cut people's pay and withdraw public investment, it will never address the problem.
The Government has skirted the issue for too long. A central core of the failure of the Fianna Fáil-Green Party Government relates to economic stimulus and jobs. The Taoiseach came in here this morning making smart comments.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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He is full of them.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They follow comments he made about people he assumes have no capacity to make any judgment. The Taoiseach should break out of his own straitjacket of tribal Fianna Fáilism and accept that other parties, including Fine Gael and Labour, may well have proposals worthy of consideration and implementation by Government.
Dick RocheUlick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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With the Taoiseach, it is a case of "My way".
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This party has worked long and hard putting together a plan for economic stimulus and the capacity to create well over 100,000 jobs for young people, the unemployed and others coming to the labour market.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we have a question please?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should be big and strong enough to break out of the straitjacket he is in and look, as Taoiseach to all our people, to worthy propositions. I will support the Taoiseach if he takes the Fine Gael economic plan for jobs and stimulus to put our country back to work, give our people confidence and restore some hope. All he has done since September 2008 is destroy the lives, careers and opportunities for our people. This is a potentially great country but the Government has failed to address the core issue. I ask the Taoiseach to look at it now.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have considered Fine Gael's banking policy and have just explained the consequences. The Deputy came in here yesterday arguing that under no circumstances should money be given to Anglo Irish Bank. I have just explained to the Deputy what happens.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Government got it wrong with AIB and Bank of Ireland. The Taoiseach should have listened to Deputy Bruton.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not going to listen to a Taoiseach who is not telling the truth. He should read the record.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should hear the Taoiseach out.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The basis of Fine Gael's funding for a stimulus package arises from defaulting on bondholders and then raising bonds elsewhere to get the money for the work the party wants to do.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I said assets should be disposed of that are of no value to the Irish economy-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I would simply ask the question-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----before the Government gives them any money.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----of how the party expects to get money when it does not propose to honour the existing bondholders? Fine Gael has come up with the idea of a national recovery bank which would be funded by the ECB. No such bank exists and none would exist on the sole basis of funding from the ECB.
Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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What about France?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should read about France.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If deposits from existing banks in Ireland are to be chased in order to bring deposits into the new bank, the increased lending capacity is nil because deposits from one bank would be taken from one bank and given to another.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is talking rubbish.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Government is destroying businesses.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Our economic policy provides for a stimulus in the form of a 5% capital investment programme, even in the context of the most difficult public finance position we have seen in a very long time.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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We have cut €4 billion from capital investment.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We are devoting €6.5 billion into a capital investment programme that is protecting up to 80,000 jobs in the economy.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What about the people leaving the country?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Even last year, in the most difficult year, 125 projects were obtained by IDA Ireland for this country.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Over the next five years it has set out to secure 105,000 jobs.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is a very reputable enterprise agency that has always delivered for this country and can only deliver on the basis of a Government being prepared to put the public finances in order so that investor confidence in the country can be increased.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should leave his rhetoric behind.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is how we are proceeding and the plans we have in place.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Tribalism is alive and well.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Good businesses are being destroyed to protect gamblers. That is all it is.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call on Deputy Eamon Gilmore.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is protecting the gangsters who are destroying good businesses day in and day out.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should speak to John Bruton.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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At least he would be honest about it.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McEntee, allow Deputy Eamon Gilmore to pose his question.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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What did Roadstone do last Friday but close every quarry in the place?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McEntee, please stop interrupting.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Government is not in the real world. It is time they joined the real world.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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In reply to Deputy Kenny, the Taoiseach stated that if the Government did not recapitalise Anglo Irish Bank, there would be a bill to the taxpayer of €65 billion.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is probably right but that is because a guarantee was given to Anglo Irish Bank on 30 September 2008 when he should have done something different to the bank at that stage.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What should I have done?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The reason Anglo Irish Bank would have cost €65 billion is because of the guarantee. It is interesting that when we proposed an inquiry into what happened in the system, the Taoiseach would not agree to it.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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He did not want it.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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When he set up some kind of half-baked investigation, he took care to exclude from that investigation the decisions made by the Government to provide the guarantee to Anglo Irish Bank because he wants to cover the close relationship that he and his party had with the bankers and developers who caused the economic crisis in this country.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There are too many gangsters.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The consequences are the figures provided to us for the live register. Although the Taoiseach has not told us the figure, the January statistic was in the order of 436,000 and he has indicated the current figure is around the same. The Taoiseach has said the matter has stabilised. I will tell him how stable it is for somebody who has lost a job. Some 340 people on average have lost their job every day since the Taoiseach entered office.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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How many people have left the country?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is the official figure and does not include immigrants who have returned to their country of origin or young people who have given up hope in this country and gone to Australia or somewhere else in the hope of finding a job and economic future for themselves. There is no stability in being unemployed, especially when people cannot get a social welfare payment or a reply from the social welfare office when making an inquiry about a claim.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is right. Nobody is doing anything about it either.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is the current position because the Government has become dysfunctional not only as regards the economy and the provision of employment but even now in the administration of normal public services. We have read in the newspapers that there is a concern in the Government about jobs, which is correct. The Greens are concerned about jobs - their own jobs - but that is not what the people of the country are looking for.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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They are learning to dance.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is thinking about reshuffling his Cabinet and juggling the jobs in Government. We have read that there will be major changes in the composition of the Government.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We will find out on Twitter.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I will ask one straight question because we are talking about employment and jobs. Will the Taoiseach, as part of that reshuffle, appoint a Minister with a dedicated responsibility for employment? Will he establish a new Department of Employment that will function and drive some employment strategy? The Labour Party made a proposal before the budget for the establishment of a jobs fund and a range of labour market interventions that would seek to get people back to work or at least access to education and training that they require to be better able to pick up employment and avail of business opportunities into the future. Will the Taoiseach at least do that much soon? There is an urgency in the employment issue and getting people back to work. From the Taoiseach's earlier reply, neither he nor any member of Government appears to appreciate or understand this urgency.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I refute once again the usual blandishments-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----from Deputy Gilmore on the reasons for the decisions taken on 29 and 30 September 2008. Had Anglo Irish Bank not been included in the State guarantee, there would inevitably have been a run on the bank as depositors and other providers of funds to Anglo Irish Bank would have rushed to withdraw their funds from that institution. The bank could not have met those immediate demands and would have collapsed. There would have been instant contagion to other banks and confidence in the entire Irish banking system would have been undermined.
Seán SherlockBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Economists have known since the Great Depression of the 1930s-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Blame everybody else.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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That is the Taoiseach's interpretation.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----that the meltdown of a large bank can have catastrophic effects on the economy and citizens' welfare. Anglo Irish Bank was much larger relative to the Irish economy than Lehman Brothers was relative to the US economy.
Joan BurtonBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The disorderly failure of Lehman Brothers brought the global financial system to its knees and the disorderly failure of Anglo Irish Bank two weeks later would have had the same effect on the entire Irish banking system. Those are the facts.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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This was about ensuring we had a banking system that could function. Despite the opposition to NAMA, the purpose of which I described yesterday, when it becomes operational it will provide us with the best means of providing access to funding at affordable prices-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach really believe that?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----for consumers and businesses. Those are the facts of the situation, and despite all of the contentions to the contrary, the Government is determined to make sure that we effectively restructure the banking system to bring that about.
This country has an employment strategy and is based on the fact that we must first bring order to our public finances, something that is glazed over by the Opposition, and that we must close the gap between expenditure and income. We have also seen a recent FÁS and ESRI study published that projects the creation of 250,000 jobs between now and 2015.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The IDA indicated what it has done. The Deputy can guff all he likes. When he was Minister for Enterprise and Employment, he relied on the IDA figures and spoke about it as a reputable organisation.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Taoiseach had to manage that organisation.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is being managed so well that when foreign investment dropped 30% in every advanced economy in the world, we still managed to bring 125 new projects to this country at a time when the economy contracted by 10.5%. That is what we have been able to achieve in our employment strategy.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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A 10.5% contraction in the economy is some achievement.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We had a Private Members' motion last Wednesday, in which the Tánaiste set out in detail the various labour market activation measures that have taken place, including the increased resources being applied for training and activation. Those are the facts, but what is being suggested here is that jobs can be created in a vacuum. The quickest way we can effect recovery and bring growth back to this economy-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----is based on the policy direction that this Government is pursuing. International and domestic independent commentators have confirmed that. That is what we are determined to do.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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We can only judge the Government's performance by results. Under the stewardship of the Taoiseach, this country was the first into the recession and will be the last out of it. We are now in the third calendar year of a recession.
Let us look at where the Government's policies have got us. Its banking policy is not working. Credit is not being extended to businesses and they are closing down. I met a hotelier recently whose overdraft facility was cut from €25,000 to €15,000. Will the Taoiseach tell that man that the Government's banking policies are working? Its banking policies are not working because credit is not going to business. As it is not going to businesses, they are closing down and people are losing their jobs. The Government's banking policy is not working because not a single loan has yet been transferred to NAMA. The only thing that is happening with the Government's banking policy is that the clock is ticking all the time against the taxpayer, while the cost of the Government's approach to the banking system rising all the time.
The Government's policy on jobs is not working. We have record levels of unemployment. We have had little or no action on the part of the Government to deal with unemployment. The Taoiseach spoke about the FÁS and ESRI report published this morning, telling us that there will be jobs in 2015.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Young people who are graduating this year will be in their thirties before they see any of those jobs.
The Taoiseach keeps forgetting that he has support across the House for addressing the issue of public finances and reforming the public service.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Stop muttering. If the shoe was on the other foot, I know exactly the response we would have got. We supported the objectives of the Government to get the deficit down. Both the Labour Party and Fine Gael produced detailed pre-budget proposals. The Taoiseach chose not to run with them, but he should not come back and say that we have not produced constructive proposals, because we have.
His problem with the public finances is that since he became Taoiseach, the size of the deficit has increased by €7 million every day due to the loss of employment. Every job that is lost is costing around €20,000. Jobs have been lost on his watch at the rate of 340 per day. He can do the sums himself. If people are out of work, there is less money in taxes coming into the Government. If people are out of work, they are not spending and sales taxes are down. That is why the Government has a problem with the public finances. The Government's policies have failed to get the real economy moving again, to get businesses up and running again and to get people back into employment. How much longer do people have to tolerate the Taoiseach, the Government and the misery that they are inflicting on those who are losing their jobs and suffering as a result of the collapse under his watch?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How long more will they have to contend with the Deputy's portrayal of the economy to the effect that nothing good was happening here? The fact is that jobs are being created while jobs are being lost.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is in denial.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that we have seen increased unemployment in net terms. That happens in recessions. The Deputy's party was in Government during recessions, even though he may not have been. The only way we can recover is by improving our competitiveness and getting back into the marketplace to create the goods and services and create the jobs at home. We are pursuing policies that are seeing improvements in our competitiveness.
There has been no support from the other side of the House for what we are doing. Can the Deputy give me one Government initiative that has been supported by his party? He agrees with the objective that expenditure must be reduced, but when it comes to voting on individual items of expenditure, he opposes them. That is fair enough because that is the role of the Opposition. In the meantime, the Government will continue to pursue policies that will bring growth back to this economy, hopefully in the second half of this year.
We are more seriously affected by other countries, because we are a small open economy and our fortunes are very much determined by what happens in the world economy. We must make sure that when the world economy lifts, we are positioned to reap the benefits. The volatility in interest rates affected our exporters' ability to maintain markets, especially in the US and the UK. That is changing as well. We are pursuing policies that will bring about recovery and growth.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Government has failed.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In the meantime, there is an incessant Opposition that will not support the restructuring of the banking system on any basis because it does not agree with our policy. That is fair enough, but it does not have a credible alternative.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Opposition has never had a credible alternative. The Labour Party never supported the State guarantee, while the Fine Gael Party did so.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We did not support cuts to the blind and the disabled, nor did we support the cuts to lower paid public servants.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On the other hand, Deputy Kenny does not want to give any money to Anglo Irish Bank, even if it means writing a cheque for €65 billion as a result, while-----
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That is infant class stuff.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Bail out the banks and screw the taxpayer.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sick and tired of this continuous effort by Deputies to claim that any decision we took was based on something other than what we were advised and based on something other than the national interest. This country was facing into a very serious situation, and I defend what we did on that occasion, because we had to ensure that markets understood that the Government was prepared to back our banking system. Other governments have had to do it since then. We did it then and we are now in the process of restructuring our banks through the NAMA vehicle, which will take those risky assets off the balance sheets so that we can protect and create jobs. How many jobs would have been protected and created had we allowed our banking system to implode?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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This is payback time for the Galway tent.