Dáil debates
Wednesday, 27 January 2010
Order of Business
10:30 am
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 22, Civil Partnership Bill 2009 - Second Stage (resumed); No. 1, Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill 2009 [Seanad] - Second Stage (resumed); and No. 23 - Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2009 [Seanad] - Second Stage (resumed). Private Members' business shall be No. 76, motion re the national response to the recent weather crisis, resumed, to conclude at 8.30 p.m. tonight, if not previously concluded.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are no proposals to be put to the House. I call Deputy Kenny.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yesterday we discussed with the Tánaiste the commission of investigation, the secret inquiry into banking and what went wrong with regulation and policy. I have looked at this again. The law, as it stands, is such that the terms of reference for any commission must be drawn up by the Executive. This leads to talk of reports being laid before the Oireachtas and of the Oireachtas being briefed, with a consequent discussion in the House. There is no way for the Oireachtas to amend the terms of reference if it wishes; it can only talk and produce hot air. If the Tánaiste wants to back up and verify the truth of the words of the Taoiseach, who said he wanted the Oireachtas involved at every step of the way, she should note "every step of the way" means being involved in the drawing up of the terms of reference. As the law stands, the Oireachtas has no function in the drawing up of the terms of reference. To give effect to the Taoiseach's wish, will the Tánaiste allow the Oireachtas to amend the terms of reference if it so wishes? This necessitates discussions with the Opposition parties and it would allow the House to propose amendments to the terms of reference drawn up by the Cabinet.
Former Supreme Court Judge Ms Catherine McGuinness said yesterday people cannot have trust or faith in secret meetings and deliberations behind closed doors. I agree, as do 91% of the population, and this is why I made my point on people giving their evidence on policy and regulatory matters in public at the investigation. There would be no constitutional or legal impediment to their doing so. What vehicle does the Government intend the Oireachtas to use in this regard? Is it intended to give chairmanship of the Oireachtas committee to a member of the Opposition in order to deal with the public perception of there being a closed circle? Under no circumstances would the Government, with a Fianna Fáil chairman, want to have witnesses giving evidence, on its behalf, that might be deemed to be somewhat-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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"Embarrassing" is the word. If the Government is serious about the matter, it will give chairmanship to a Member of the Opposition. What committee does the Government intend to use?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The answer to the straight question as to whether there is a proposal to introduce amending legislation is that there is none.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In that case, does the Tánaiste not agree that the Oireachtas should have a function regarding the terms of reference?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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On the issue of committee chairmanship, which is well outside my remit on the Order of Business, I indicated yesterday to the House, including Deputy Kenny, that an Oireachtas committee will have the opportunity to meet and discuss the issue prior to the release of the scoping report. That is the first stage and it will include the international expert in addition to the Governor.
11:00 am
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is not only Fianna Fáil and the Government that are falling apart.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Progress will then be made on the issue and the scoping report will be debated in the House. Members will have an opportunity to discuss this and any other issues they wish to raise when the further inquiry is set up. As I indicated previously, the Minister for Finance has been forthright in this regard, in listening to the views of Opposition Members . I am sure, as I spoke to him last night, he will be more than happy to have further conversations with Opposition Members.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What about the chairman?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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What do we want to see? We want to see the facts established in the most cost-effective and time-efficient way. The Government believes this is the best proposal in ensuring that.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is about the Government saving its face.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The hot air is beginning to escape.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Finance has been very forthright unlike the Tánaiste. I hear the hiss of escaping hot air, so much so it could drive a large turbine.
The first point the Tánaiste made was that there was no intention of introducing amendments to the current Act.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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This is not in order. It has nothing to do with legislation.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Excuse me Deputy Dempsey, it is in order on the Order of Business.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Members please desist from talking across the floor of the House?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny without interruption.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny should know that as he was a Whip himself.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, desist from talking across the floor?
Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Who is running the country?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When Deputy Dempsey was a Whip himself, I recall giving him such advice. He knows it is perfectly in order but he does not want further embarrassment for the Government.
The Taoiseach said the Government wanted the Oireachtas involved at every step of the way in this inquiry. One of those steps is the drawing up of the terms of reference. The current law does not provide for the Oireachtas to be part of that. The Taoiseach said he wants that change but the Tánaiste said no further amendments will be introduced. If the Tánaiste wants to agree with the Minister for Finance, who has been very forthright, an amendment is required to provide for the Oireachtas to change the terms of reference of an inquiry, if it so wishes.
Everyone is interested in seeing the law of the land applied and those who were blatantly out of line, if the law so finds them, or were involved in criminal activities ending up behind bars. Finding out the facts at the cheapest cost is also in everybody's interests. However, I am sure the Minister for Transport is fully intent on having a Fianna Fáil chairperson of some committee beaten around the head in an office upstairs before he goes to the meeting and being told to stand by the party with no embarrassing questions on matters of policy or regulation.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I have not heard anything as ridiculous as me beating chairpersons around the head. Did Deputy Kenny get a hit on the head?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If the Government is serious about this inquiry, the Tánaiste, as deputy leader of the Government, should be able to inform me what committee will deal with it. Will a special committee be established with a short-term remit and an Opposition Member as chairperson?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It will be just a smokescreen.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a slur on all Fianna Fáil chairpersons.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny has made an insinuation claiming they are incapable of doing their job, which is utterly untrue.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They are very sensitive on that side of the House.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Has the Tánaiste met any of them recently?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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She is even laughing at it herself.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please allow the Tánaiste without interruption.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I would really like to see how Deputy Kenny beats the heads of his Deputies to ensure they tow the party line when they are asking questions on his behalf.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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He does not even talk to them outside of the House.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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In my 23 years of experience in this House, each Member is an individual and has the capacity to ask the questions regardless of whether it is the party line.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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They must lead very sheltered lives.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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She is even smiling to herself.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Of all people, Deputy Kenny should know that himself.
No decision has been taken on the committee that will undertake this work. The Houses of the Oireachtas will be involved in all of the three stages of this inquiry. There are issues which the House has discussed for a considerable time. If there are important issues that need to be raised concerning the terms of reference, they will be listened to also.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We cannot do so as the legislation will not be amended. The Government simply does not want to amend the legislation.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call on Deputy Gilmore. Will Deputy Kenny allow him to speak?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am greatly touched by the Tánaiste's vigorous defence of Fianna Fáil chairpersons, particularly after reading the newspaper reports of yesterday evening's Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting at which we had another phoney rebellion, this time on the issue of civil servants' pay.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore is more than welcome to attend one of our parliamentary party meetings if he so wishes.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It reminds me of the New Testament quote, "A house divided against itself falls."
This morning there was a good report by the education editor of the Irish Independent, John Walshe, which draws attention to the unfairness of the student grant scheme. For example, a bar manager may not qualify for a student grant because his income is PAYE while the bar owner may qualify, if he organises his tax affairs in a particular way in the year when applying for the grant. The Student Support Bill 2008 was to reform the student grant scheme or the administration of it in any event. It has been on the Order Paper for some time and raised by Deputy Quinn many times. The Bill was referred to the Select Committee on Education and Science on 20 April 2008, two years ago, but we have not heard sight nor light of it since. In light of today's report by John Walshe, when will this Bill be considered by the select committee?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed that Committee Stage will be taken during this session.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Last week when I asked after the publication date for the prescription charges Bill, I was advised it would be taken this session. This Bill has been contextualised by the Minister for Health and Children regarding the high costs of drugs and medications which I do not accept. However, the reference pricing for drugs Bill, which is directed at the high cost of drugs, is not listed for publication in this session. How can we fast-track legislation to introduce a new charge on those least able to afford access to medication, such as medical cardholders, while there is no similar haste to introduce legislation to address the high costs of drugs? Why have we a different set of arrangements in place for drug manufacturers and distributors? When will the Cabinet approve the heads of the reference pricing for drugs Bill? Will they be published once they are agreed?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is anticipated the heads of the Bill will be before the Cabinet shortly with a view to having the legislation in the House this year.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise two issues, the first of which relates to that raised by Deputy Kenny regarding the sensitive negotiations taking place in Northern Ireland. Will the Tánaiste keep in mind the need to brief the leaders of the two main Opposition parties on the developments in these talks, even though they may be sensitive and having particular regard to the bipartisan approach adopted by the House in the past 25 years?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has the Deputy a question on promised legislation?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That should also apply to Sinn Féin if it has not already been briefed.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, we are on the Order of Business.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, and this is correctly raised.
A Cheann Comhairle, you encourage me on a regular basis to put down parliamentary questions. Yesterday, I acceded to your wishes and asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, the number of occasions on which he met with representatives of management and staff of the public and private broadcasting sectors in each of the past three years to date, the subject matter of such discussions and the outcome.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not appropriate to rehash parliamentary questions on the Order of Business.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle advised me on last week's Order of Business to do this.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy being advised to put down parliamentary questions and then coming into the House to rehash them on the Order of Business is a different matter.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle encouraged me to raise this issue by way of parliamentary question and I have complied with his wishes.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister said in his reply that in the context of the development of broadcasting policy for the past three years he and his officials had cause-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan is abusing the Order of Business and the rights of individual Members.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----on a regular basis to meet with the various interests that comprise the broadcasting sector, including but not limited to commercial broadcasting etc. He then stated that he was not in a position to inform [the Deputy] of the precise number of occasions on which he had met etc.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must move on. Does the Deputy have a query in regard to promised legislation?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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On the manner in which we do our business in this House, the Ceann Comhairle and I know that the Minister has an obligation to inform the House of the number and nature of-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, this is entirely inappropriate to the Order of Business.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----discussions he has had relating to his public business.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sure there will be legislation on the matter at which time the Deputy will have ample opportunity, perhaps on Second Stage, to make these points. He may not do so now.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy can make his points on Second Stage of legislation relevant to the particular Department. Does the Deputy have a query in regard to legislation?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Before I take up the Ceann Comhairle on that offer, I am as long a Member of this House as is he and I have yet to learn of an appropriate time to deal with such issues unless dealt with on the Order of Business. Once again, I remind the Ceann Comhairle that while the Opposition asks questions in this House it never gets answers.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a query on legislation?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have stated my query which relates to the quality of replies to parliamentary questions.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not promised legislation.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Legislation has been promised. The programme for Government-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will be well aware we have a sub-committee dealing with Dáil reform and that it is the appropriate forum for him to raise all of the points which he has now raised, all of which are valid in their own way.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Since becoming a Member of this House almost 30 years ago-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have been more than tolerant with the Deputy.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----I have been hearing about committees dealing with Dáil reform. Why can Ministers not simply answer our questions?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should refer the query via his party's Chief Whip to the sub-committee on Dáil reform.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have already done so-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a question on promised legislation?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----about five years ago.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a question on promised legislation? If not, we will move on.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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My question relates to the activities of Ministers and their need to inform the House about what they are doing.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should have the matter raised with the sub-committee on Dáil reform. I call Deputy Crawford.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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When will the mental capacity Bill be brought before the House? There are currently 500 people on hospital trolleys. Perhaps the Tánaiste will advise us of the reason the wildlife (amendment) Bill is being prioritised ahead of legislation on health? It is a serious matter when human beings are placed second.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps the Tánaiste will state if legislation in this area has been promised.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The mental capacity Bill will be brought before the House this session. No date has yet been fixed in respect of the other legislation to which the Deputy referred.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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What about the wildlife (amendment) Bill?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It will be introduced this session.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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That is important.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Has the Tánaiste had an opportunity to read and examine the Shipsey report in regard to DCC, Fyffes, shares, insider trading and so on? Does the Government intend to provide time to debate that report in this House? I ask this in the context of this report cutting to the heart of matters relating to business in this State, a small country where all of the insiders appear to know each other and in the context of the difficulties that we face with the bank inquiry-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has a debate been promised on this issue?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----which inquiry centres on six to ten institutions all of which know each other.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will have to find another way of dealing with this matter.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle allowed my esteemed colleague to speak for a long time.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I know. I was unduly tolerant with him. That does not mean other Deputies should follow his example.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle should accord the same quality of esteem to female Members of the Labour Party-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am doing so and I am doing my best.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----who indicate early in the proceedings their desire to speak. We want equality of esteem.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes. At the same time, the matters raised must be relevant to the Order of Business.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I wish to raise a serious issue with the Tánaiste, namely, whether she has had time to read the Shipsey report or be briefed in full on it, whether the Government intends to provide for a debate on the matter in this House and what lessons will be learned from the Shipsey report that are pertinent to the most important inquiry held in this country-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----namely, the series of inquiries into the banking crisis.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are other ways through which the Deputy can raise that matter.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is a perfectly appropriate time to raise the matter. I am totally in order in raising it.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should speak to her party whip about-----
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is an inquiry which is a matter which comes-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----initiating a debate on the matter.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is a commission of inquiry ordered by Government. I am asking if the Tánaiste has yet had time to read or be briefed on the Shipsey report and if the Government is proposing to provide time for a debate on the issue in this House. I am perfectly in order in asking that.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not promised business.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It can be considered in the context of discussions with the Whips. I have been briefed on the matter.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am perfectly in order in asking that question.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It should not take the Deputy so long.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I asked some time ago the reason Ireland had not signed the optional protocol to the United Nations Convention on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and received in this regard a helpful reply from the Minister for Foreign Affairs who stated that Ireland would be attending the signing ceremony but was not then in a position to sign. What is the current position? Does the Government intend to sign and ratify the convention, when does it propose to do so and has it considered the international reputational damage of not doing either?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I will revert to the Deputy on the matter.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Minister of State with responsibility for horticulture, Deputy Sargent, made a fleeting visit to the House earlier. Members will be aware that he has proposed the closure of a Teagasc research station in a new part of my constituency. I have tried to raise this matter in different forums, including with the Ceann Comhairle-----
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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-----who refused to allow a debate-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I can only advise the Deputy to persist with the matter.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is what he is doing.
Mary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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The Deputy is following the Ceann Comhairle's advice.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are so many other ways the Deputy can raise the matter, including by way of parliamentary question or on the Adjournment.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The matter relates to the same incredible secret sub-committee of CPP which has been meeting for 30 or 40 years-----
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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-----and involves this nonsense whereby we cannot discuss State agencies on the floor of the House. We must rid ourselves of this rule which is completely undemocratic.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The sub-committee on Dáil reform might-----
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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As the distinguished journalist, Mr. Vincent Browne, said last week this House has been completely eviscerated of any kind of meaningful power leaving us with a type of parliamentary dictatorship, which is evident from the banking inquiry. The Ceann Comhairle has a responsibility to pursue this matter and to give me an opportunity to raise it.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has a debate or legislation on the matter been promised?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps then the Deputy will find another way of raising the matter.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle might find an avenue through which I can do so and will reform the relevant procedure, which is a nonsense.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should call to the Ceann Comhairle's office.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy can table a parliamentary question on the matter.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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There is no regulation in this country of assisted human reproduction. The Government is standing aside, as is the case in respect of so many of these issues, and leaving it to the courts to make decisions with regard to this sensitive area, in particular for the families directly involved. Has the Government any plans to introduce legislation on this important issue?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will be aware that this is a complex issue. The Department of Health and Children intends to submit policy proposals to its Minister and the Government in terms of the direction and scoping of the legislation. For this reason, the matter has not been included in the spring-summer legislative programme.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Does the Tánaiste expect legislation to be introduced some time this year?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It will be a Government direction.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I draw the Tánaiste's attention to an interview I heard last week on a Tipperary radio station during which the Taoiseach gave a firm commitment to the people of south Tipperary that he would make extra funding available for the repair of roads which are in a serious state. The Taoiseach stated he would speak to the Minister for Transport about the matter and would transfer funding-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has legislation on the matter been promised?
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Tánaiste will update the House on that matter in view of the fact that many councils have made special application to his Department and are awaiting a response to same.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will have to find another way of raising the matter.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I need an answer because the weather is now forecasted-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We had an avalanche of Adjournment offerings on this matter not so long ago, and they were allowed as well.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach last week gave an indication that funding would be made available and I understand that the Minister for Transport has some idea. Would the Tánaiste be able to respond to that?
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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There is no legislation promised.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There is no legislation promised. I am sure, if the Taoiseach gave a commitment, it will be dealt with.