Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Question 88: To ask the Taoiseach if the Central Statistics Office plans to include the incidence of autistic spectrum disorder here in a question in the 2011 census; his views on the fact that accurate statistics in the area of ASD are a prerequisite for disability planning in the context of a national disability strategy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48616/09]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 89: To ask the Taoiseach the manner in which the Central Statistics Office determines the range and scope of questions for inclusion in the 2011 census; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3471/10]

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 88 and 89 together.

The Government decided in July 2008 that a census of population will take place in 2011, as required by EU regulation, and asked the CSO to commence the necessary preparations. A public consultation was conducted in September 2008. The CSO placed a notice in the national press inviting views on the topics to be covered and on the outputs to be produced. There was also direct engagement with all Departments. More than 90 submissions were received, covering 31 topics in total.

A census advisory group was established by the CSO in autumn 2008 to consider the submissions received and advise on the questions to be tested in a pilot survey planned for April 2009. This group consisted of representatives of central and local government, the social partners, universities, research bodies and other users of census data, along with the relevant CSO personnel. The work of the group was also informed by the core topics that must be covered by all member states under the relevant EU regulation.

A specific sub-group was convened to consider the appropriate treatment of disability-related issues. This was composed of representatives from the National Disability Authority, the Equality Authority, the Disability Federation of Ireland and the National Federation of Voluntary Bodies. One of the key issues it considered was a proposal to list specific disabilities, including autistic spectrum disorder, on the census questionnaire. The sub-group concluded that it would not be appropriate, nor would there be enough room on the census form, to list individual disabilities. It did, however, agree that the existing 2006 category, "A learning or intellectual disability", should be split into two categories: "An intellectual disability"; and separately "A difficulty with learning, remembering or concentrating".

The pilot survey was held on Sunday, 19 April 2009. Its main purpose was to test public reaction to the wording of a number of new questions, including successful testing of the revised approach to the questions on disability. The sample consisted of 11,400 households, covering 32 enumeration areas spread throughout the country.

In December the Government agreed on the list of topics to be included in the next census questionnaire in line with the advice of the CSO and the census advisory group. This list of topics is available on the CSO website, along with the report of the census pilot survey conducted in April last. The Government also agreed that census day will be Sunday, 10 April 2011.

Greater use of statistical information to underpin evidence-based policies is a key goal across all areas of public service delivery. It is a matter for each Minister and Department to prioritise their data needs in this regard, building on the core demographic information established by the national census of population.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply. The last part of the reply is very interesting. Everybody was consulted about the content of the census form bar the Members of this House. A number of people in this House have had a great deal of involvement and experience in dealing with, particularly, children with autism. To send out a survey to the members of the public asking them whether particular illnesses should be designated for special mention on a form is quite ridiculous. The only people concerned about real issues like this are the parents and organisations dealing on a daily basis with unfortunate children who have a disorder such as autistic spectrum disorder. I fail to see how any Government can develop a proper policy particularly in the area of education and health without statistics about the numbers of people affected, in this instance, by autism.

Is the Minister of State aware of ongoing difficulty for parents trying to get proper educational facilities, speech therapy and medical assistance for children with autism, be it at early diagnosis stage or in primary and secondary education and ultimately right through the educational system? I ask the Minister of State to take the matter back to Government and ask whether it would not be better off being discussed by the appropriate committee in this House that could invite the various organisations dealing with specialist illness such as autism to make submissions outlining what they want. They are the people with whom we are dealing on a daily basis. Everybody else was consulted on the content of the form. To say that this specialist group ruled it out on the basis that the form was not big enough is the best I have heard. Surely a form can be made somewhat bigger to include important questions such as the one I pose here. Will the Minister of State review this matter again? As Minister of State in the Department of the Taoiseach and Chief Whip he has responsibility for the CSO. If he gives a direction in this regard, it will be done, and I ask him to do it.

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Barrett for his question. When I took over this responsibility a year and a half ago, one of the first matters that came to my attention, through a constituent of the Deputy's, was the issue of autism. I took the trouble to raise it directly with the CSO. I went to the CSO office in Cork, just to tease out the issue. The reply I have given is substantially what the specialist compiling the data gave us. Unfortunately, it will not be possible at this stage to change matters because the order for the date of the census has already been set. Issues such as the contract for printing the census forms and so on are in place. I certainly will take on board what the Deputy is saying, however.

To be fair, the various voluntary bodies and statutory agencies that deal with the whole area of disability, particularly autism, were consulted. A pilot questionnaire was issued which contained two versions of the disability question. These were submitted to alternate households during the pilot survey. The analysis from the pilot survey indicated that the best information would be compiled by using version A of the questionnaire. That arises from the way the question on disability was framed, incidentally, in the 2006 census, so there is a development, while admittedly not to everyone's satisfaction, in the type of information being elicited on disability at each stage.

It would not be appropriate nor would there be enough room, the sub-group concluded. I happen to believe the "enough room" reference was somewhat weak. However, it agreed that the existing 2006 category, as regards a learning or intellectual disability, should be split into two. The revised approach to the question of disability was tested successfully in the 2009 pilot survey and the reworded questions, which may be found on the website, include questions as to whether a person has any long-lasting conditions or difficulties such as blindness or serious vision impairment. There is a very long list which includes difficulties doing activities as well as questions on general health, means of travelling from home including the time a person leaves for work, school or college, the time taken for the journey, data about unpaid personal help and so on.

I now have the specific information to hand and category (a) was in relation to blindness and (b) deafness or serious hearing impairment, "yes" or "no". Category (c) refers to a difficulty with basic physical activities such as walking, climbing stairs, reaching, lifting or carrying and (d) to an intellectual disability. Category (e) refers to a difficulty with learning, remembering or concentrating, (f) a psychological or emotional condition and (g) a difficulty with pain, breathing or any other chronic illness or condition. "If 'Yes' to any of the categories specified in question 14, do you have any difficulty in doing any of the following?: (a) dressing, bathing or getting around inside the home; (b) going outside the home alone to shop or visit a doctor's surgery; (c) working at a job or business, or attending school or college; (d) participating in other activities, for example, leisure or using transport."

Those are the alternatives that were tested in the pilot survey.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Many of these questions suggest that it is a matter of curiosity as distinct from developing actual facts in order to develop policy. Whether it is autism or any other form of disability, it is important from the viewpoints of education and health that we should have proper and accurate statistics. The only way to get them is from the census. It is quite absurd that everybody was consulted bar those elected to this House. We are directly involved with various types of illness, including autism. We have to deal with such issues daily, but we cannot develop proper policies without having accurate statistics. Will the Minister of State please make inquiries in this regard? I tabled a similar question a couple of years ago, so I gave plenty of notice. I am not doing this from curiosity, but because I was asked to do so by people who are dealing with autistic children. They feel it is necessary to get accurate statistics to develop a proper framework in which to provide services for such children and in other areas also.

Another question refers to "anybody with an intellectual disability" and adds "if so, please state the type". It should then ask whether the person is satisfied that there are adequate education facilities. Those are the sort of questions that should be posed. The most serious issue of all is the lack of speech therapy for young children who are left with a disability as a result of not receiving such services early on. I ask the Minister of State to re-examine this matter. As public representatives we are depending on him to make our case to those involved in this issue. Ultimately, it is the Minister of State's responsibility to say whether this goes in or stays out. That is what governments are for and the Minister of State is in a positive position to be able to do something about it.

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I would not go all the way with what Deputy Barrett is suggesting. He should not forget that we have a fairly significant body of disability legislation, which was enacted by this House in recent years. The national disability database together with other pieces of legislation, such as the EPSEN Act, have been progressively implemented. They are the principal vehicles whereby the type of information the Deputy is talking about would be compiled.

As regards how questions for inclusion in the census form are chosen, all EU member states will be conducting censuses in 2011 in compliance with an EU regulation, which is the first covering censuses. All member states have to cover a number of core questions and are also bound to produce their outputs according to standard methodology agreed at EU level. If the Deputy has time to consult the website, he will see the core questions that have to be asked. There are also other non-core questions, which each member state can frame in its own way.

As regards the deficit of statistics on persons with autism, the Central Statistics Office suggests that it is simply not possible to collect statistics concerning specific disabilities on a census form. Indeed, it is not realistic to collect information on specific individual disabilities on any household survey. The range and enormously diverse nature of illness and disability are not suited to survey collection. It is more appropriate to gather such data from administrative records. That is constantly improving because one of the issues that arose when I met the officers in the Central Statistics Office was the matter of how else it could be done if it could not be done in the census. The CSO publishes over 300 statistical releases and publications each year. It provides high quality statistical information which is a vital input to planning for the future and monitoring outcomes at national, regional and local levels. The CSO has, for some time, promoted greater use of objective statistical information in evidence-based policy making across all areas of public services, including those relating to intellectual disability. In this regard, it is a matter for each Department to set out and prioritise its own statistical data needs.

In response to Deputy Barrett, because there is merit in the idea, I will arrange for the CSO officials responsible for the census to meet the appropriate committee as soon as possible so that some of the concerns the Deputy and other Members have raised can be dealt with. Their concerns are not without value, but there is no point in suggesting the next census can be revisited. In the meantime we could consider how we can get more specific data and how we can prepare for the following census.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister of State indicate to what extent public advertisement was employed by the Central Statistics Office in announcing the public consultation process on the construction of the census documents in advance of next year's census, which he has indicated will take place on 10 April 2011? How extensive was that trawl and what was the extent of the response? Was the HSE invited to offer its opinion, particularly with regard to the pilot census document? I have one of those documents but I think the Minister of State indicated there were two. Will he clarify whether two different types of forms were employed in the pilot census in 2009 or the pilot data collection process undertaken?

In the document I have, it has blindness, deafness or severe vision or hearing impairment down as one question whereas the document to which the Minister of State referred had separate questions. I suggest the form to which he referred is eminently more sensible than one where the information is all together because it is difficult to understand how one can inform the Government and policy makers of the critical need by placing blindness and deafness in the one category.

We have had a health section in the pilot survey of 2009. Can we, therefore, look forward to a more elaborate health section intended to gather an even greater amount of information in the 2011 census form? Has the CSO considered the possibility of including questions on more specific and more widespread conditions such as diabetes and asthma? Would it not be a worthwhile exercise to inform policy makers of the extent or prevalence of diabetes and asthma in society and is this not the ideal way to establish the full facts about these prevalent conditions in society? Can the Minister of State indicate whether the HSE has been involved in the consultation process? If so, what was the result of that consultation and what was the result of any other consultation with regard to the health area? Does the Minister of State accept that more specific questions regarding health would be useful in helping to determine health care needs and planning required in terms of health care systems and supports?

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The consultation took place between August 2008 and November 2008. Submissions were invited from the public and interested bodies in August 2008 on the content of the questionnaire. Submissions were received from 91 different organisations and individuals. These covered Departments, local authorities, Government agencies, the research and academic communities and private individuals. The submission covered 31 different topics. I am not in a position to identify the position on the HSE specifically but I will find out the information and communicate it to the Deputy.

Two meetings of the census advisory group were held in September and November 2008. The group comprised persons from Departments, local authorities, public bodies, the social partners, universities, research institutes and the CSO. Some groups, comprising representatives from various appropriate bodies and interest groups, were convened to discuss and agree on the topics of disability, education, enumerating and homelessness. The content of the pilot questionnaire was decided on the basis of the consultation and discussions that took place. A strategic decision was taken at senior management level in the CSO to adhere to the 24-page layout used in the 2002 and 2006 censuses. This provided three pages per person enumerated for up to six persons in each household.

Two versions of the pilot questionnaire were devised to allow controlled testing of the new and revised questions, as indicated. The two versions were distributed evenly among households in the pilot areas. Version A was delivered to every second household and version B was offered to the remaining households. The pilot survey was conducted on 19 April 2009 and the sample covered approximately 11,400 addresses located in 32 enumeration areas in eight counties. The areas selected were representative of urban and rural areas, in addition to deprived and non-deprived areas.

Five types of strata were chosen for the pilot programme. In cities, the enumeration areas were within Dublin and Cork administrative areas. With regard to suburban areas, the enumeration areas were in the suburbs of Dublin. The enumeration areas in large towns were in those with a population of 10,000 or more according to the 2006 census. In areas with an urban-rural mix, the enumeration areas covered both urban and rural areas. With regard to the rural stratum, all enumeration areas with at least 75% of their populations living in those rural areas were chosen.

The Deputy asked about the inclusion of conditions such as diabetes. I suspect the same response would be forthcoming from the CSO in this regard. The census is not the appropriate mechanism for compiling such specific data. I will arrange for the CSO officials involved with the census to explain how they managed to include or exclude certain questions. Thus, we will have a better understanding of whether the other surveys the CSO is constantly carrying out on a rolling basis could be used to compile the very specific information Members of this House clearly find useful and important.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The expectation of the response indicated by the Minister of State should not dissuade us from forwarding a very sound case for the inclusion of specific questions that could help inform not only Deputies and Senators but also, and most important, wider society. I instanced diabetes and asthma. Surely the information gleaned thereon would inform the health authorities, including the HSE and Department of Health and Children. Does the Minister of State agree? The information might also inform people within the pharmaceutical sector on specific needs. One could add a number of other conditions that are very much in evidence in Irish society, including coeliac disease, with a view to identifying the particular dietary needs of the people, in respect of which there is no proper presentation or marketing. People have insufficient information on such conditions until such time as they become acutely aware of them. There is a range of other questions that could inform a raft of different interests and areas in a cross-societal response to these particular needs. I strongly encourage an exploration of what is possible for inclusion in the 2011 census. I welcome the Minister of State's indication that he will check if the HSE was directly consulted. If any consultation took place, what was its outcome? Are there elements of the questions in the 2011 census that will get the information I am seeking?

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will do what Deputy Ó Caoláin has requested and revert to him as quickly as I possibly can. The CSO's thinking was strongly examined, evaluated and its advice was taken in the end.

In an operation of the size and scale of the census, it is important to bear in mind that only questions that have been tested in the field, have proved to have worked and were acceptable to householders can be considered for inclusion in the 2011 census. Anyone involved in any research testing will know that if there is any ambiguity regarding the likely outcome of a particular question, it is better to discard it. The census form is delivered to every household in the State and every person in the State is required by law to answer the questions on the form. The questions on disability that have been tested in the field are the 2006 variant of the question and the new 2011 variant. It is not possible to include a question that has not been tested first. Some questions, depending on the words used, the way the question is worded and the categories included, etc., do not work or give reasonable results.

In this regard, the CSO feels the 2011 version of the question is a considerable improvement on the question asked in 2006 and has recommended it for inclusion. The Government does not believe it would be appropriate to reject the advice of the CSO and the census advisory group in this regard. There is little point in my view in raising expectations as to what can be achieved, particularly in light of the professional advice the Government has received.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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The number of unoccupied dwellings will be a significant feature of the next census. We will need to know precisely the number of unoccupied dwellings in the State. Having had a quick look at the form, I note it states that it will be a census of people and households. Will a count be taken of every dwelling that is unoccupied? Anyone canvassing in the last election knows that the one great feature of our communities is the high number of unoccupied dwellings, even in well-established housing estates. This will need to be factored into deciding economic and social policy.

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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There is certainly anecdotal evidence that it is proving extremely difficult to compile census data from, for example, gated communities and others. Anything up to a half dozen attempts would have been made in the previous census by enumerators to collect census forms. A substantial majority of the forms were ultimately collected and the information collated. I will find out for the Deputy the estimate for non-returned forms in the last census. I do not believe it will be possible using the 2011 census to establish the level of unoccupied dwellings in the State. It may, however, be possible by matching other data. Matching the €200 levy on second homes with local authority returns might for example be a way of getting some of the information required. Some mechanism of establishing the extent of unoccupied dwellings in the State will have to be found, be it through organisations such as the universities, the Economic and Social Research Institute, Central Statistics Office or Revenue Commissioners. While everybody is required by law to participate in the census, I will try to establish the level of participation in the last census and will forward the information to the Deputy.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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That would be helpful. However, I believe the Government needs to take a more structured proactive approach to this. We need to know how many empty dwellings there are in the country. Clearly, we have a surfeit and it would be immensely valuable if we knew the extent of that surfeit. For the Minister of State to simply say that he will try to establish the number of non-returnable forms is to not get the nub of the issue. Is it part and parcel of the project that an assessment is made of the number of dwellings that are unoccupied and that all the resources available are used to track under-occupancy across the country? I do not know whether it is possible under data protection legislation to utilise information held by utility companies. There is a big difference between an enumerator giving up and saying he or she cannot gain access to a particular area such as a gated community and one who, having gone through various procedures, reaches the conclusion that a building is unoccupied.

I suggest that if we do not have this information we will be losing an opportunity to finally understand the extent of the problems that have arisen out of the building boom and where we are now. It would be unfortunate if, following this whole process, a Minister is not in a position to provide this House with the number of unoccupied dwellings and spare capacity in the country and to set out where they are in terms of the regions.

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It will not be possible to compile that type of information in the proposed census survey. The Deputy will have seen on the database, in terms of household characteristics, the type of categories of questions that must be answered. The type of information required includes the type of accommodation, the year the house was built, the nature of occupancy of the household, rent paid, number of rooms, central heating, water supply, sewage facilities, number of cars and vans, PC ownership and Internet connectivity. These are the questions that are honed in on. While most of them are covered by EU regulation others including the type of accommodation, whether the property is rented or purchased, whether it has central heating, the number of cars and vans, PC ownership and Internet connectivity are chosen by member states. The specific information which Deputy McManus seeks to be sought is not covered in the already agreed questions for the 2011 census.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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I am sorry to labour the point but I do not believe the Minister of State is accepting the argument as it is made. I have no problem with the questions chosen for the 2011 census or with whether they are set down by the EU or chosen by member states. All of that information is helpful. However, at some point an enumerator gives up. It would be immensely useful for local authorities, health services, social policy makers and us if an enumerator, having gone through a certain amount of effort, can reach the conclusion that 10% of dwellings in a particular county are unoccupied. What happens otherwise? Are the forms thrown out? I am asking the Minister of State to again take up this matter with the CSO. Will the Minister of State go back to the CSO and make the point that unlike many other countries in the EU, we had this massive building explosion and people are now emigrating? All one must do is go into a well-established housing estate to see houses where the curtains are discreetly closed or the shutters are discreetly pulled over, and know that they are no longer occupied but, because they cannot sell the houses, they are not up for sale. That is the common experience, quite apart from the big new estates that are three quarters empty.

It is crazy for us to embark on such a sophisticated fact-finding mission and omit that piece of the jigsaw. I acknowledge it is difficult, but all I ask the Minister of State to accept is that if it can be done - the work of enumerators is meticulous and forensic - we should have that kind of information brought in to ensure that we have some picture of Ireland today, including the surfeit of building stock that exists all over the country.

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It may well be possible in the analysis of the returns for that kind of information to be elicited. It would be worthwhile. However, I have already stated that the questions have been set and it is gone to the stage where the Government has taken a decision.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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I have no difficulty with that.

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Deputy McManus that it would be interesting, and probably essential, for us to find a way, but she mentioned that some of the utilities - it is entirely possible, if we go down the road of installing water meters in every household unit in the State - would provide a way of finding out how many are occupied. The ESB, gas companies and the like could provide data. However, at this stage, while it may well be desirable, it will not be feasible to put in such a question,-----

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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That is not the question.

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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-----but in the analysis of the returns it just may be possible. I will try to establish with the CSO if that is possible.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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Great, I thank the Minister of State.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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If the Minister of State is arranging with the CSO to address one of the committees, perhaps his office would notify the Deputies present because we will not be aware of which committee will take it.

Pat Carey (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will find that out first.