Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 9, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 10, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the reports by the Minister for Defence regarding service by the Defence Forces with the United Nations in 2007 and 2008; No. 11, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Regional Fisheries Boards (Postponement of Elections) Order 2009 (back from committee); No. 12, Supplementary Estimates for Public Services [Votes 19, 20, 22, 27, 30, 31, 34, 37, 40 and 41] (back from committee); No. 13, Communications Regulation (Premium Rate Services) Bill 2009 - motion to instruct the committee; and No. 41, Communications Regulation (Premium Rate Services) Bill 2009 - Order for Report, Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m.; Nos. 9, 10 and 11 shall be decided without debate; Supplementary Estimates [Votes 19, 20, 22, 27, 30, 31, 34, 37, 40 and 41] shall be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after one hour and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith, and the following arrangements shall apply: the speeches of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Sinn Féin, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed five minutes in each case, Members may share time and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; and the proceedings on No. 13 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after one hour and the following arrangements shall apply: the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Sinn Féin, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed five minutes in each case, Members may share time and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes.

Private Members' business, which shall be No. 60, Dublin Docklands Development Authority (Amendment) Bill 2009 – Second Stage, shall also take place tomorrow at noon and the proceedings on the Second Stage thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes on that day.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil sit later than 8.30 p.m. agreed to?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose an amendment that the Dáil sit until 11.30 p.m. I can explain the reasons later if the Ceann Comhairle wishes. The Supplementary Estimates are too serious to pass within one hour. At least 45 additional minutes should be provided to deal with this business. A further 45 minutes should also be provided to debate the Communications Regulation (Premium Rate Services) Bill 2009. For some extraordinary reason, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources intends to introduce what is practically an entirely new Bill on Report Stage which will deal with the provision of fibre cable. While I support such provision in principle, this is not the way to go about it. Rather than having two separate divisions on the Supplementary Estimates and Bill, I suggest the House sits until 11.30 p.m. to give 45 additional minutes to each item.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Labour Party is not prepared to agree the Order of Business until we secure clarification from the Taoiseach in respect of the social welfare Bill. Last week, it was intimated the Bill would be taken next week. Today, there is some talk around the place that there is a possibility or an intention on the part of the Government to have the legislation put through the House on Friday of this week. I wish to establish from the Taoiseach exactly what the Government's intentions are with regard to the Bill. I am sure by now the Government has clarified in its own mind when it will be brought before the House and what Stages will be put at various times. This information should now be shared with us.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I call for longer than one hour to debate the Estimates. Given the record of the Department of Finance in respect of the Estimates of both receipts and expenditure, this warrants a debate longer than one hour and I hope the Chief Whip will agree to it.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the budget and the consequent legislation required. Two tranches of legislation will be required, the Social Welfare Bill and legislation to deal with the public sector pay situation as a result of issues which arose last week. It is the intention of the Government to come to the House with the Social Welfare Bill on Thursday this week, to take Second Stage on Thursday afternoon and evening and then deal with the subsequent Stages on Friday and to come next week with the Public Sector Pay Bill.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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This is new information provided to the House. I asked the Taoiseach about the post-budget legislative arrangements the Government intends to make. The Taoiseach is now telling us that there will be two very significant tranches of legislation. The Social Welfare Bill is obviously intended to cut social welfare and the Government proposes to rush it. We will have the budget on Wednesday. The Taoiseach is now indicating he will introduce the Bill on Thursday afternoon and take all Stages by Friday evening. This is not acceptable. Apart from what he intends to do with the budget, this is an insult to the people, including the carers, the many people on disability, pensioners and people on social welfare payments. It is not only a matter of what he plans to do in the budget but his attempt to do it in this way. He is now saying there will be more legislation to deal with the pay issue. I have raised with the Taoiseach several times-----

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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This matter can be raised on the Order of Business. We must get a decision on a number of issues.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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If the Ceann Comhairle wants me to call a vote on every one of these five proposals I will do so.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is already a proposal on an amendment and we must get a decision on that.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Whatever way the Ceann Comhairle wishes to handle it is fine but we have very little time. This is the point I have been making and it is not the first time I have raised this matter. Since the Government has decided the budget will be introduced this week there is very limited time between budget day, tomorrow, and the recess for Christmas to debate the budget. We are now told there will be two very controversial tranches of legislation which the Government intends to rush through the House. In the case of the Social Welfare Bill it wants to have it done and dusted by this weekend.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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They are afraid to let them home over the weekend.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Forget it. We are not going to agree to that or anything remotely like it.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The amendment is in the name of Deputy Kenny. Is it being pressed?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal to deal with No. 9, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 10, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the reports by the Minister for Defence regarding service by the Defence Forces with the United Nations in 2007 and 2008; and No. 11, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Regional Fisheries Boards (Postponement of Elections) Order 2009, without debate agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal to deal with No. 12, Supplementary Estimates for Public Services, agreed to?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have already proposed that we should allocate more time to discuss this and I propose an extension of 45 minutes. There is a number of very important items to be discussed and it is unfair to expect this to be completed in the time allocated where there is only ten minutes per main spokesperson.

Vote 30 deals with the Department Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. There is the question of payments to RTE, An Post and the broadcasting fund. An amount was to be paid to RTE in 2000 as the balance of licence fees collected in 1999 under the old system were not met. Vote 27 deals with the Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. There is a Supplementary Estimate in respect of Army pensions. The note states that the gratuity and pension has been higher than anticipated at the time of the original Estimate and that the upward trend in the past four months is expected to continue to the end of the year. This has serious implications for the Army.

Vote 34 deals with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the temporary employment subsidy scheme. The Department of Health and Children requires a Supplementary Estimate of €254 million. A series of items are dealt with in it.

The Vote of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform deals with the Garda Síochána Vote. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said many of the gardaí were hangers on at this stage. The note states there is a 100% increase in the number of budgeted retirements for 2009. It is a serious loss of experience and a brain drain from the force. These matters cannot, and should not, be dealt with in a ten minute period.

There is also the prisons Vote. We heard a story today about a man in some distress being arrested because he did not have a dog licence and who spent a day in Mountjoy Prison. This should not happen. These matter should be discussed for a longer period of time and I suggest a 45 minute extension.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I agree with Deputy Kenny that the amount of time being provided for these Estimates is far too short. For that reason, the Labour Party is opposed to this proposal. I am also opposed to it because of the completely unsatisfactory arrangements the Taoiseach has indicated for the taking of the Social Welfare Bill. It would appear what is happening is that the Government is now so terrified of exposing any of the Government Deputies to their constituents over the weekend that it will try to get the Social Welfare Bill through before they go home for the weekend. If the Taoiseach cannot carry his team for one difficult weekend, he will not have much chance of carrying them for another two years.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Supplementary Estimates were referred by the House on 24 November last to the Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service and were dealt with by it. All the discussion has taken place. There are nine Supplementary Estimates - six of them are technical and three are substantive. They have been discussed by the relevant select committee and have been returned to the House for approval. I do not see the reason we should have a further discussion because they were dealt with by the committee.

Deputy Gilmore asked about what is emerging as a result of the budget requirements. There will be two Bills - the Social Welfare Bill and the Bill on public sector pay. We will have to deal with them in line with the time available in the House and we propose to take the Social Welfare Bill later this week. The Deputy spoke about difficult decisions. It is clear he does not believe that any difficult decisions should be taken on anything.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is well aware that although Votes are discussed at committee, it does not mean finality once it has dealt with them. These are matters of public importance. It is normal they return to the House for final approval. From that point of view, the House should have an opportunity to discuss them for a longer period of time than is proposed by Government.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the amendment in the name of Deputy Kenny being pressed?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal for dealing with No. 12, Supplementary Estimates for Public Services, agreed to?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is not.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 12 be agreed to," put and declared carried.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal for dealing with No. 13, Communications Regulation (Premium Rate Services) Bill 2009, motion to instruct committee, agreed to?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I think the Ceann Comhairle was surprised that a vote was not called on the last proposal. I could see that registering. No. 13 is a case where the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is effectively bringing in a brand new Bill on Report Stage. I accept the principle of the Bill, as has been outlined by Deputy Coveney on a number of occasions, but in this case, what is essentially another service unit or layer of bureaucracy is being included to deal with communications.

What the Minister is doing in the use of ducting along national primary routes is correct in principle but this is not the way to go about it. This Bill is supposedly about premium rate services for telephones and although it began as such it is ending up as a brand new Bill being introduced on Report Stage, which the Dáil will not even have an opportunity to discuss properly or amend if necessary. For that reason I am opposed to the proposal.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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The Labour Party is opposed to this.

Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Of course it is, the Bill is an innovation.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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It is not the way to bring in legislation. The Minister has essentially lumped two separate Bills into one, and the second part of this Bill deals with an issue totally unconnected with the main Title. The Minister did not have an amendment in time so Deputy Coveney and I submitted an amendment prepared by the Government. It was rejected because it was not relevant to the Bill.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We were teasing the Deputy.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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We are supposed to be able to get the basics right. We do not have to get great thinking from the other side of the House.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It would help.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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We must have the nuts and bolts of democracy working as required. That means we should have the Bill on Committee Stage. In this instance, we did not. We did not have the full Title of the Bill. Report Stage will even include an amendment to the Title of the Bill. It is a clumsy, inadequate and undemocratic approach to preparing and making legislation, which is our primary duty, and because the Government has failed to live up to its responsibility, we must oppose this.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Is this Green Party Dáil reform?

Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Two for one.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understand it was broadly agreed on Committee Stage how the Bill would proceed and this proposal reflects that discussion on an all-party basis. I do not know what is the problem.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5 agreed to? Agreed.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This morning, I was circulated with a proposed Order of Business for Thursday and Friday. Friday's business was supposed to include the Forestry (Amendment) Bill 2009, statements on a carbon budget and the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill [Seanad] 2009. Can I take it that is no longer valid in view of the statements made in respect of the social welfare Bill?

The usual procedure in the House for years was that following the presentation of the budget by the Minister for Finance and contributions by Opposition spokespersons, the budget debate began the following day and lasted, at one time, for weeks but, in latter years, for a week or so. Is that being changed? What is the proposal to deal with Thursday's business? Will it just be leader's speeches on the budget followed by the introduction of the social welfare Bill because the implications of this are serious?

Arising from the statement of the Minister for Finance tomorrow, is it intended to introduce an emergency measures Bill to deal with a reduction in the public service bill? If, tomorrow, the Minister for Finance indicates a reduction in public sector pay, I understand it will be necessary to introduce an emergency measures Bill. If this is the case, when is it intended to take that Bill?

It is now accepted by the Government that reform of the public service, or a more effective public service, is fundamental to moving the country forward and getting out of the economic difficulty we are in. It is more than six years since I pointed out that if benchmarking were to be paid it should be contingent on efficiencies and achieving targets in the public sector. That did not happen. In view of the Government's acceptance of the fact that we must have public sector and service reform now, how is it proposed to present that in view of the collapse of the social partnership model as applied heretofore?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Today, the Cabinet considered the legislative requirements in the aftermath of the budget. As I stated earlier to Deputy Gilmore, two Bills will be required, namely, a social welfare Bill and a Bill on public sector pay. The social welfare Bill will be taken this week and the public sector pay Bill will be taken next week. We envisage a change to the Order of Business for that purpose. The budget debate and financial resolutions will be taken on Wednesday as normal and will be resumed on Thursday. We will then take the social welfare Bill and on Friday morning the carbon budget will be taken followed by the Remaining Stages of the social welfare Bill.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the urgency in taking the social welfare Bill this week? Second Stage of the Bill will be taken on Thursday and all Stages will conclude on Friday. Is there a reason this is so? The list published by the Chief Whip referred to the Bill dealing with social welfare increases but obviously that is not the case. Does the urgency have something to do with the fact that, as Deputy Gilmore pointed out, the Government backbenchers appear to be terrified of having another week of this? If that is not the case, is there a particular legislative reason it has to be taken on Thursday and Friday?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has two Bills to deal with before the Dáil rises and for that reason we have to proceed with them. We will not have as much time after the budget debate as we did in previous times and we have to proceed with enacting legislation so that it takes effect as envisaged for 2010. In recent years, social welfare Bills were taken after Private Members' time on the following Tuesday and completed by 7 p.m. on the following day. This time, we want to deal with two Bills and the second arose because we were not able to find agreement on public service pay last Friday. Instead of dealing with one Bill we must deal with two.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I want to ask the Taoiseach more about the two Bills promised. He stated we will have a social welfare Bill, Second Stage of which will be taken on Thursday and Remaining Stages to be taken on Friday. In addition to taking Remaining Stages of the social welfare Bill on Friday we will also deal with the carbon budget, which presumably will include proposals on a carbon levy or tax. When will the social welfare Bill be published? I presume it will not be published until after the Budget Statement is made tomorrow. The budget debate will effectively be truncated some time early on Thursday to allow for the social welfare Bill to be introduced. Is the Taoiseach seriously stating that a social welfare Bill, which for the first time since the time of Ernest Blythe will introduce reductions in social welfare, will be published some time on Wednesday evening or night at the earliest, with Second Stage debated on Thursday and all Stages completed on Friday? That is utterly unacceptable as a parliamentary procedure and is unnecessary. The only reason this is being done is because the Taoiseach and the Government think the backbenchers will be too cowardly and wobbly to face their constituents on this issue over the weekend. They are being corralled here this week and will be made vote for this before they go home at the weekend so they will be able to tell constituents that no matter what they say about social welfare their hands are tied.

When will the Bill dealing with public sector pay be published? Will that Bill have any proposals or measures on public sector pensions?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In response to the first matter, it is a question of ensuring that we enact legislation this week and next because of the time available to us. We have to proceed on that basis. We have to ensure that we give legal effect to the budgetary decisions being taken tomorrow.

On the question on the public sector pay Bill, I made the point that the issue relates to public sector pay and public sector pensions is a separate issue to be dealt with at another time.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I asked the Taoiseach when the two Bills will be published.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The social welfare Bill will be published after the budget announcement.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Is it already written?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The other will be published in good time for the following week.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is not an acceptable response given the arrangements proposed for the Bills. If we take a social welfare Bill on Thursday I want to know when it will be published. Will it be published on Wednesday evening after the budget or will it be published on Thursday morning? Will we see it before the Minister comes in to propose it? When will the Bill dealing with public sector pay be published? I want a specific time for its publication because we have only a very short sitting arrangement. As a matter of courtesy we should be told when the Bills will be published. We also have precedent for a period of time to be given after a Bill is published for people to consider it.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The social welfare Bill will simply incorporate the budget decisions so the Deputy will be on notice-----

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am not looking for its content; when will it be published?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----from the time of the budget announcement. It will be published that night or morning-----

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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When?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Please Deputy, there is no need to be like that. I am answering the question and I will not be barracked like that. It is unnecessary. It is not the Deputy's form and there is no need for it.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is not answering me.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I made the point that the contents of the social welfare Bill will relate to the budgetary announcements on social welfare. They will have to be given legal effect and we will take them this week.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have to move on.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am sorry but this is not business as usual and there is a logic to why I am asking this. We have two Bills to which the Government has obviously given consideration. Have the heads of the Bills been approved by the Government? Has the text of the Bills been approved by the Government? Will they be published this week? If the two Bills must be passed by the end of the session and must be introduced this week why do we not take Second Stage of both Bills on Friday and take Committee and Remaining Stages next week?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The question of introducing the social welfare Bill or any other legislation which might be necessary in the aftermath of the budget will be dealt with in the normal way tomorrow morning prior to the budget's introduction. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs will outline the position to Cabinet at that point. The Deputy is as aware of the procedures relating to the budget as I am.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Many families throughout the country suffered hardship in recent weeks as a result of flooding.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is there any promised legislation in this general area?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It has been established that in some instances, the difficulties which occurred could have been averted.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan must find a different way in which to raise this matter.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle should wait until I have finished.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are so many alternative routes open to him.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is promised legislation in this area. There is a requirement on the Government to set out its priorities in this regard. A delegation from the Joint Committee on European Affairs visited the European Commission last week and met Commissioner Samecki and an indication was given with regard to the availability of funding.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must move on. We have spent an inordinate amount of time on the Order of Business today.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I will refer to the legislation in a moment. If the Ceann Comhairle was not continually interrupting me, I would have concluded long ago. That is the worst of interrupting a poor old fellow from the country.

There is a willingness on the part of the European institutions to be helpful. They have provided assistance in other countries which suffered similar difficulties. Will the Taoiseach provide an indication with regard to the degree of urgency which might be applied in respect of addressing existing issues and preventing future catastrophes in the areas which were worst affected by the recent flooding? Two of the relevant items of legislation are the environmental liability Bill and the environmental (miscellaneous provisions) Bill. Effectively, the Taoiseach is the only person who can provide an indication with regard to what will happen in respect of this matter.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the Deputy seeking a date for the introduction of those items of legislation?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, I want the Taoiseach to indicate if the legislation to which I refer might be used to prevent a recurrence of recent events.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Advice is being sought from the Office of the Attorney General on a number of issues that have arisen during the course of the drafting of one of the Bills to which the Deputy refers. As a result, it will not be possible to publish said Bill prior to the end of this session.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What about flood relief? Many people are waiting for such relief.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must proceed to the next item of business.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They are waiting anxiously and would appreciate a little bit of hope.