Dáil debates
Thursday, 3 December 2009
Other Questions
Departmental Agencies.
5:00 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Question 6: To ask the Minister for Finance if he will indicate the start-up date for the transfer of assets to the National Asset Management Agency; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [44821/09]
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The National Asset Management Agency Act 2009 provides for the acquisition of eligible assets from participating institutions by NAMA. In accordance with the terms of Part 6 of the Act, it is expected that the first acquisition schedules will be served by NAMA on participating institutions in January 2010. This will prioritise the loans of the larger borrowers across the participating institutions.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am astonished that a country that has more than 90% of its landmass under water does not have a Department to look after its interests. The one thing I can say on behalf of the former Taoiseach, the late Charles J. Haughey, is that he established a Department of the Marine. It is astonishing that Fianna Fáil in Government decided to scrap that Department. The marine is where all our natural resources are based and where there is enormous potential for job creation and inward investment - nothing but advantages. This is a vain attempt to transfer responsibilities. What does the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government know about sea matters? That it will be responsible for future investments in this regard is outrageous because it is primarily concerned with onshore matters.
We are living in a different era. The Foreshore Act 1933 never envisaged Ireland extracting gas from its seabed or the installation of ocean energy devices like offshore turbines. Such developments are the country's future in inward investment and job creation, but the 1933 Act was never intended to handle them and nothing in the Bill will prepare us for future investment opportunities.
Speaking as Chairman of the Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security, the Government has failed to attract investment that is otherwise leaving us daily for Scotland, Portugal and Denmark. We have failed to deal with the applications for investment in offshore renewable energy. It is disgraceful that we are still depending on legislation dating back to 1933. The Act's remit stretches form the high water mark to the 11-nautical mile limit, comprising 57% of our landmass. Future development will occur beyond the 12-mile limit.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
However, we still do not have legislation to deal with it. My all-party committee produced legislation entitled the offshore renewable energy development Bill and presented it to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources 12 months ago, but we still have not heard anything about it. Nor has the Government done anything to introduce its own Bill.
Nothing in the Bill before the House refers to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. It refers to consultation between the Departments of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, but neither will handle offshore renewable energy. There is no reference to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. There is no facility for consultation with it. Section 7 amends section 2 of the 1933 Act and states, "Where the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (being the appropriate Minister) is considering making a lease in accordance with this section, then the Minister so considering shall consult with the other Minister on the matter before deciding on whether or not to make the lease." What about the third Department?
Will the Minister of State explain what the Government is doing to attract inward investment? Through my committee's work, we know that €16 billion is waiting to be invested in wind, wave and tidal energy. Some of that money is drifting to other countries because people have been waiting years on their foreshore licence applications.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy's seven minutes have expired.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is frustrating. Through the Houses' committee structure, people genuinely worked on an all-party basis in the country's interests and produced legislation because a Department will not. However, the Bill before the House makes no reference to the industry's potential.
Yesterday, my committee produced a report on the post-2020 electricity requirements. This came after a public consultation process in which submissions were made to us. I invite the Minister of State to read our report and check our website. Given the outrage expressed by potential investors over the lack of a proper planning structure for offshore renewable energy and the delays involved in dealing with these issues, I appeal to the Minister of State to speak with his friends in the Green Party, who have obviously done a deal between themselves. Any Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources worth his or her salt would not have allowed this legislation to pass at Cabinet level without insisting that reference be made to the role of his or her Department in the development of an important part of the economy.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Deputy Barrett for sharing time. I will make two points on this legislation. The first has been covered by many speakers. On the coasts of Wales and France are marinas and harbours, but we have an unexploited tourism resource that has never reached its potential or been cultivated because the Government has never taken the marine seriously. As Deputy Barrett stated, we do not have a Department. One can go from south County Clare to County Mayo without encountering a marina. The one in Greystones is being developed successfully, but it encountered many difficulties, including foreshore valuations. The Minister for Finance had responsibility and the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and everyone else had an input. At the same time, no one had an input. Many projects were parked because people got tired of waiting.
The most important word spoken by the Minister of State was "modernisation". Legislation must be modernised. The Celtic tiger is over. We do not have oil or mineral wealth. Our only resources are people, innovation and education, but no legislation covers the thousands of kilometres of our seabed. The resources therein are being plundered and our seabed is being damaged because we have no control over or commitment regarding the situation. It might be one of our most important resources. It could take us out of the recession. We need to work with universities, including NUIG, and the marine industry to map the seabed, as its potential is unlimited. When we look back in ten or 20 years' time, our neglect of that potential will be one of the great shames of this era.
Frank Fahey (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How many minutes do I have?
Frank Fahey (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Two will be plenty.
I welcome the Bill's introduction by the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen. Like Deputy Barrett, I had the pleasure of being the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, when I had responsibility for foreshore licences. It must be one of the most bureaucratic and frustrating areas in which to work. It is not appropriate to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, but to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I hope this legislation will ensure an efficient administration system. If one needs a good example of bad bureaucracy, it is this division. In this regard, I appeal to the Minister of State and to the Minister, Deputy Gormley, who is taking over the portfolio. This legislation must ensure an efficient approach to the processing of applications in what Opposition Deputies have rightly described as a significant area of offshore and onshore development.
Since the Bill will be passed through the Dáil quickly, I ask that we be given an opportunity at a later date to discuss the administrative and policy arrangements that will operate in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It is vital that we no longer have road blocks in the issuing of foreshore licences. As Deputies Higgins and Burke stated, it is important that many of the frustrations and blockages to date be brought to an end. It is critically important that this area, which is of particular significance for offshore energy, is developed. The innovation associated with this type of industry should be also attached to the development of foreshore licences, marine technologies, fishing and aquaculture. It is appropriate that this sector should come under the aegis of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
I support the initiative being taken by the Minister of State.
Tony Killeen (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will be brief so that we can move on to the Committee Stage debate. Some of the issues that have been raised by Deputies can be dealt with in the context of the Committee Stage amendments.
Deputy Creed and many others suggested that the Bill represents a missed opportunity. It is important to explain that a number of options were considered as part of the modernisation of foreshore licensing functions. It was deemed necessary, on foot of legal advice and other considerations, to pursue that process in three phases. As I explained in my opening speech, the first phase of the process was completed in September of last year when a number of functions were transferred. This legislation provides for the second phase of the process - the division of responsibilities and the transfer to the Environmental Protection Agency of certain functions relating to dumping at sea. The third and final part of the process will take place after the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has engaged in consultation. Nobody who listened to today's debate, in which a vast range of opinions were expressed, will be in any doubt about the quantity of work that needs to be done before we can reach that point. It is clear that some fundamental issues need to be considered in the context of the modernisation of the foreshore licensing regime.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the process be completed within the lifetime of the Government?
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is it difficult to predict how long the Government will last, or how long the process will take?
Tony Killeen (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is difficult to predict virtually everything at the moment. A number of Deputies made the point that many of these functions could be best managed by a stand-alone Department of the marine. We have had such a Department on a number of occasions. Two Deputies who are present in the Chamber served in that Department. Interestingly, other European countries with long coastlines have had similar experiences. As a member of the interdepartmental marine co-ordinating group, I think people would be surprised to find that 12 Departments are involved in marine matters. Even if a stand-alone Department of the marine were reconstituted, most marine functions would have to be retained by those parent Departments. I do not have time to elaborate on the many reasons for that.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A single Department is needed.
Tony Killeen (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Creed expressed concern about warfare between Departments.
Deputy Sheahan referred to aquaculture and to the operational programme. A number of issues need to be resolved following the European Court of Justice's adverse finding against Ireland at the end of 2007. The subsequent issuing of a reasoned opinion brought us even closer to being fined. The Departments of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government have put together a roadmap for dealing with all of these issues. Significant resources - time, personnel and money - have been made available to compile the necessary documentation. It takes time to gather such material in any event, but it is being done as quickly as possible in this instance.
A number of people, who will deal with foreshore licensing in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, have been trained in recent times. When they are in place, the staff who are currently in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will be able to concentrate all their time and energy on applications like those mentioned by Deputy Sheahan. They will also deal with aquaculture, fishing harbours and fisheries matters. The same staff will be in place, but they will have a much narrower focus.
Deputy Sheahan also asked about foreshore licences for emergency works, which will continue to be a matter for the Office of Public Works. I remind him that the Loughs Agency has jurisdiction over Lough Foyle. Some work in that regard is being done by the Department of Foreign Affairs. As far as I can establish, the Department is not currently aware of any cases of illegal dumping at sea.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That does not mean there is no dumping.
Tony Killeen (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As the hydroelectric project may be based on land, it will not necessarily have a foreshore element. I am not quite sure about it. A number of the points made by Deputy Higgins would be more relevant to the third, rather than the second, phase of the process, with which we are currently dealing. The process that is under way at present involves the division of responsibilities and powers between the two Departments and the Environmental Protection Agency.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is a great pity we are not at the third phase.
Tony Killeen (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are not at the third phase because a number of processes have yet to be completed. Certain people have very strong views in this regard.
Tony Killeen (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Members of this House expressed diametrically opposed views during today's debate. Interestingly, individual Deputies expressed diametrically opposed views within their own speeches about how this issue should be dealt with. A significant amount of work has yet to be done. Everyone who has taken a genuine approach to this matter appreciates that this serious job should be done properly.
Deputy Higgins queried the philosophy of ministerial discretion. I was in philosophical agreement with many of the points he made, including this one. It is fair to say that the scope of ministerial discretion is substantially circumscribed by a number of directives, including those relating to environmental impact assessment, public participation in decision making, access to justice on the environment and public access to environmental information. As it is not an absolute power, I do not think the Deputy's concerns in this regard are well founded.
Although the question asked by Deputy Higgins about the conditions that apply to leases has nothing to do with the process we are undertaking today, it will be fundamental to our consideration of the third phase of this process. The Deputy argued that we have not properly defined the public interest, but we have a good idea what it is. Such matters will have to be dealt with.
When I left the Chamber briefly, I took advice on the question the Deputy asked about public ownership. I am satisfied the issue of ownership by the public is as clear as one could expect it to be. It is certainly clear enough for the requirements of this Bill. I agree with the Deputy that the dangers which are associated with the transfer of ownership are compounded in circumstances in which unscrupulous types might have access to the commodities being transferred. Quite frankly, there is an obligation on the Government and on the Oireachtas to ensure the public interest is defended in this regard.
Deputy Higgins also made a point about the concept of intergenerational justice, which is beginning to gain considerable credence. It will be of great importance to the third phase of this process, if not to the Bill before the House today. I do not know the answer to his question about the timescale for the taking of the next step. The role of the marine licence vetting committee will not be changed by this legislation. I do not doubt that its role, statutory or otherwise, will be considered when a fundamental examination of foreshore licensing is undertaken. I assure the Deputy that neither this Bill nor the subsequent legislation will have negative implications for research funding.
Deputy Ferris expressed concern about difficulty in accessing information on the Corrib gas field. I have been assured that a full process of public consultation was followed in respect of that project.
Deputy Cuffe spoke about new frontiers. The important point he made about the need to vindicate the rights of the people was very similar to the point made by Deputy Higgins, although it was expressed in somewhat different language.
Deputy Deenihan referred to key infrastructural developments. Considerable progress has been made in that regard in his constituency. To the best of my knowledge, licences have been issued in respect of the project he mentioned.
I join those Deputies, including Deputy Deenihan, who commended the Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security on the work it has done, which will inform the decisions of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in this regard.
Before I took up my current position in the Department, I would have agreed with Deputy Sheehan's point about the need to expedite decisions. As a Minister of State, I can make inquiries within the relevant section of the Department about any specific case raised by a Deputy, Senator or constituent. I frequently find that the information provided in response to questions that were quite clear does not address those questions.
Tom SheahanTony Killeen (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Some of the problems associated with resources will improve when an additional 18 officials and five engineers start to work on infrastructural projects in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, while the current staff continue to work in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, like many other Deputies, spoke about the size of this resource. He argued that the regulatory regime has stifled development. On the other hand, public interest questions have had to be addressed in line with the principle of the Foreshore Act 1933 which, as Deputy Barrett said, could not have foreseen the challenges that emerged. I suggest that the primacy of the public interest requirement represents a major and worthwhile benchmark.
Deputy Burke asked whether staff will move. It is intended that five engineers will move. I should point out that they are not based in Clonakilty - they are based around the country. They know what happens in Kinvara Bay, Clonakilty Bay, Lough Foyle and elsewhere. He also spoke about realistic objectives, which would have been fine in 1980 or 1981.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The question should be directed to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Minister correctly indicated that what Ireland is trying to achieve or must achieve now is the equivalent of a devaluation. We must do it by pushing down wages, prices, fees and charges. I wish to put two simple suggestions to the Minister. Would he consider leading this by at least agreeing to a freeze on every charge made by the State, so that no charge would be increased by the State? Second, would he consider an initiative to target rip-off wherever it is occurring, be it in the board rooms or on the high street? I can offer an example. I went into a shop today and was told by the proprietor that his rent had increased by 100% last December. Although trade has collapsed, there is no question of him negotiating an agreement to reduce it. Is that not immoral? It is economic suicide for this country if some people can increase their rents in that manner at a time when the Minister is, rightly, trying to get costs down. Will the Minister take the lead in a campaign to drive down these costs, which are really hurting our ability to trade our way out of this problem?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have taken the lead in so far as the Department of Finance funds different branches of Government. It is very important that we ensure that the cost of government is reduced. It is also important that citizens reflect on the fact that there has been a fall in the cost of living and that the provisions in the budget will have to reflect that. Above and beyond that, I agree there are issues about charges by the State. In preparing budgets and examining departmental estimates it is essential to examine appropriations-in-aid as well as amounts taken in taxation to ensure that they are not simply used as a substitute form of taxation instead of real cost economies in the particular operation. Local authorities have an important role to play as well, and members of local authorities will have to face up to their responsibilities in their management of the authorities.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What about landlords? Do they not have a responsibility too?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There have been substantial decreases in rents, far above most other-----
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They are household rents. I am referring to commercial rents for businesses.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am sorry, the Deputy's question was about the retail sector. I understand that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform intends to commence the relevant legislation with regard to greater flexibility early in the new year.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that after the NAMA valuations are done?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
No, there is no connection as I understand it.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is keeping the valuations up.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Minister brought forward legislative proposals and is considering their implementation. There is considerable evidence of a reduction in commercial rents, notwithstanding upward review clauses.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Most traders have one opportunity between now and the January sales.