Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Minister for Defence if the Defence Force payroll savings being sought by him will be achieved through retirements; if so, if he will maintain current rates of pay for serving members; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42418/09]

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The Defence Forces have improved in every respect since 2000 through the implementation of the White Paper. This represents a significant public service success story and has been acknowledged by both the Taoiseach and myself. Arising from the White Paper on Defence, we have created modern, well-equipped Defence Forces capable of meeting the needs of the Government and the public and ensuring value for money.

The White Paper on Defence set out a figure of 10,500 personnel for the Permanent Defence Force as the strength sufficient to deliver on the roles laid down by the Government for domestic operations and to provide a sufficient pool for rotation for overseas missions in addition to maintaining sufficient depth across the required range of skills.

The strength of the Defence Forces at 31 October 2009 was 10,013. This reduction has resulted from the moratorium on recruitment and promotion in the public service introduced by the Government in March of this year. I am acutely aware of the impact of the moratorium on the Permanent Defence Force, particularly in light of the very high turnover rate that is part of any military organisation. I am addressing the impact of the moratorium with my colleague, the Minister for Finance.

The Deputy will be aware that discussions are ongoing with the public sector trade unions affiliated to ICTU about mechanisms to deliver the required savings of up to €1.3 billion in the public sector pay bill in 2010. Discussions are also taking place between officials of my Department and the associations representing members of the Permanent Defence Force in parallel. While I would not wish to anticipate the outcome of these various discussions, it is my view that any agreement reached will apply across all sectors of the public service. In the context of the adjustments required in 2010, I do not, therefore, foresee scope to offset a reduction in numbers against pay levels within the defence sector specifically.

Planned expenditure levels for my Department will be considered as part of the Estimates and budgetary processes for 2010. This will include consideration of the McCarthy report, and the decisions on all of the issues arising will be a matter for the Government. It would, therefore, be inappropriate for me to comment any further at this stage pending the outcome of these deliberative processes.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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I find that answer somewhat disappointing. It is obvious that more than 500 members will have left the Defence Forces by 31 December. The Government's target of having a payroll cut of 6.85% will be achieved because the figure of 500 - the true figure will be in excess of this - is one eleventh, or approximately 9%, of the full complement. Therefore, the saving will be more than achieved. If an organisation such as the Defence Forces achieves the cut the Government seeks, why can it not be treated in isolation as a special case?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I have told the Deputy my opinion, namely, that reductions in public sector pay must be applied across the board. Admittedly, they must be applied in a way such that those who can bear them most will bear them most and that there will be as little impact as possible on those who can bear them least.

I have made the point to the Minister for Finance that, because of the high turnover in the Irish military, as with any military, the moratorium has hit the Army very hard. The complement has reduced to 10,013. Nevertheless, the Army is in good shape and is well trained and well equipped. It is lean and mean and a far better organisation than it was before the White Paper was implemented. However, I am concerned by the precipitative drop in numbers, particularly over the past nine months. I made proposals to the Minister for Finance to allow me scope to recruit, not solely at the level of enlisted personnel, and also to make promotions and recognise certain people acting in positions above their rank. We have almost reached a conclusion on those deliberations. I spoke to the Minister about it as late as yesterday and today. We will have reached a conclusion before 9 December. I am conscious of the importance of the Army's role both at home and abroad. My aim in these difficult budgetary discussions is to maintain operational capability in the Army and command arrangements.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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From what the Minister said, it appears that despite how well a particular Department, organisation or agency performs in terms of reducing numbers and achieving saving targets, the Government's approach will be an across-the-board cut, albeit that it may be less at the lower levels. That appears to be what the Minister is saying.

The Minister indicated that his talks with the Minister for Finance reached conclusion today. Does that mean he has reached agreement?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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No, I said that we have almost concluded our deliberations. We have until just before the budget and we will have reached a conclusion before then. I agree with Deputy O'Shea that the Defence Force is the only public sector organisation in the country where numbers have fallen in the past ten years. I have pointed that out to my Government colleagues and I am putting forward that as a consideration when we are discussing the savings that will apply to the defence sector. Let us make no mistake, however, all sectors have to play their part. I am simply trying to get recognition for what has been achieved already. I hope that will be the case.