Dáil debates
Tuesday, 17 November 2009
Ceisteanna - Questions
Ministerial Staff.
2:30 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the duties and responsibilities of the special political advisers as appointed by him; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30614/09]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the duties and responsibilities of the special political advisers as appointed by him; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32524/09]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach the number, role and function of political advisers in his Department; the cost of such advisers since June 2007 to date in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39057/09]
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 6 together.
There are currently seven special advisers in my Department. Under the direction of my programme manager, who is my principal special adviser, the primary function of the special advisers is to monitor, facilitate and help secure the achievement of Government objectives and to ensure effective co-ordination in the implementation of the programme for Government.
The role and duties of special advisers are described in section 11 of the Public Service Management Act 1997. In summary, these are providing advice, monitoring, facilitating and securing the achievement of Government objectives that relate to the Department, as requested; and performing such other functions as may be directed.
Special advisers are also tasked with giving me advice and keeping me informed on a wide range of issues, including business, financial, economic, political, environmental, administrative and media matters, and performing such other functions as may be directed by me from time to time. In addition, a number of my advisers have specific responsibilities in speech drafting.
Each of the advisers liaises with a number of Departments and acts as a point of contact in my office for Ministers and their advisers. My advisers attend meetings of Cabinet committees and cross-departmental teams relevant to their responsibilities. They also liaise, on my behalf, with organisations and interest groups outside Government.
The advisers assigned to the Government Chief Whip and to the Minister of State provide advice to the Ministers of State and monitor, facilitate and secure the achievement of Government objectives that relate to the Department of the Taoiseach, as requested by the Ministers of State. My programme manager meets other ministerial advisers on a weekly basis. He monitors and reports to me on progress on that work as well.
The total salary cost since June 2007 to date for the special advisers attached to my Department is €2,798,870.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The front page of one of the national newspapers today sets out clearly the scale of payment by Government to special advisers, media advisers and other personally appointed staff. It is interesting to note that the Government spent €6.2 million in 2008 on special advisers, media advisers and other such persons - one would build a few schools for that.
The Taoiseach stated €2.7 million is the cost since June 2007 to date and that the purpose of these advisers is to facilitate, monitor and secure Government objectives. I am not sure how successful they have been. Are these special advisers subject to reductions in salary the same as everybody else? Are they subject to the income levy because of bonuses and increments that they receive?
I mean no disrespect to the person involved, but how, for example, does the Taoiseach justify an increase of €10,000 in the salary of somebody who writes scripts for the Taoiseach and who was employed by his predecessor? The person's salary, I understand, was €118,000 in 2007 and the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen, when appointed increased it to €128,000.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How much was it earlier?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I understand it is €128,000. It was €118,000 in 2007 and after the Taoiseach's appointment, it increased by €10,000 to €128,000. Is there a particular reason for that or was it based on bonus, increments or whatever?
Are all of these positions subject to the recruitment embargo? If, for some reason, a political, special or media adviser happens to be let go or retires from the Department of the Taoiseach, is that subject to the ban on recruitment as well?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There are no bonuses in relation to these payments. They are appointed at a certain salary scale depending on their responsibilities. I did not make any arrangements for increases. These increases presumably arise as a result of people moving into other increments. In other words, whatever rules apply also apply to them. As regards the recruitment embargo, these people take up the job in line with the tenure of the Government of the day, so they leave office when the Government's term ends. In that respect, therefore, they will not have the same terms of employment as people in the public service generally.
As the Deputy knows, this system was first introduced back in 1992 during the Fianna Fáil-Labour coalition Government. It has remained with us throughout every period of Government since then. The Deputy made a point about the cost of advisers. Given a total pay and pensions bill of almost €20 billion, the idea that Ministers or other office holders would have advisers, whose tenure coincides with their own term in office for the purpose of providing supplemental or independent advice to the Department and assisting and liaising in respect of whatever jobs and responsibilities they have, puts in context the fact that this is a very small part of the total Government operation. It was introduced at the time for a good purpose and obviously it must be kept under review at all times. Under the Public Service Management Act, there is no limit on the number of advisers a Taoiseach can appoint, but there are arrangements in place regarding Ministers.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I recall the appointment of what were then known as programme managers back in the rainbow Government's time. By and large, that system streamlined work going into the Cabinet where there might have been differences of opinion or a range of views being expressed by different Ministers, particularly when a number of parties constituted the Government. It had a streamlining effect on putting business through.
I did not catch the Taoiseach's answer to the question on advisers having to leave for some reason or other. It may be as a result of tragic circumstances or perhaps somebody wants to leave for a different job. Is there a facility to reappoint or is such a vacancy subject to the embargo?
I understand that the Department of Health and Children came second to the Department of the Taoiseach with a spend of €514,000 on advisers in 2008. When I asked this question of the previous Taoiseach, he always said that in this case the advisers are paid through the Department of the Taoiseach because the Minister, Deputy Mary Harney, was the leader of a minority party in Government. That is no longer the case, however, as she is effectively an Independent Deputy. Therefore, the adviser or programme manager involved remains in the Department of Health and Children, but is paid for by the Department of the Taoiseach. The title has been changed to that of a special adviser with responsibility for health and children. What is the justification now for having a special adviser to the Minister for Health and Children paid for through the Department of the Taoiseach when the Minister involved is no longer the leader of a minority party in Government? That was the justification given for it on so many occasions in the past. Does this not amount purely to a presentation of massaged figures to avoid a situation where the Minister for Health and Children continues to have exorbitant moneys for running her Department?
Is there a reason this set of advisers is paid for by the taxpayer through the Department of the Taoiseach when its function pertains to the Minister for Health and Children? There is no longer any justification for this given that the Minister for Health and Children is no longer the leader of a minority party in government. The cost in 2008 was €514,000. One would build another school for that amount.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Although the Deputy mentioned the cost and stated one could build another school for this or that, the fact is that advisers add value to the work of an Administration. They assist in making sure policies are being implemented and they comprise a very small part of the overall Government operation.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Making a pejorative remark about it is to suggest that this is a valueless exercise; it is not. It is the second time the Deputy suggested that it is valueless.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The money would build another school. The advice they have given the Minister-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the Deputy's view. He is entitled to his view on it and can play the populist game. There is no problem with that. The fact is that these people are-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not a populist game but a fact.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please allow the Taoiseach to continue.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is on both sides of the fence, as usual. He referred to how important it was to have advisers when his party was in power but now that he is in opposition and I am in Government, he suggests there should be none at all. That is the true position and there is nothing more to it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I said it streamlined the system, but what has happened here-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If he can get a line in a tabloid newspaper that gives him a big figure-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They were not paid for by the Department of the Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----the Deputy will be delighted with himself. He will get another big picture in the paper.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a question of the advisers being paid for by the Department of the Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy knows what the game is.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let us deal with the issue seriously.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should deal with it seriously.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He is paying an adviser to the Department of Health and Children
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In respect of the work of the Department of Health and Children, I indicated to the Deputy that I act as chairman of the Cabinet sub-committee on health. I have an interest in health.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is paying the adviser to the Minister for Health and Children.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As Taoiseach and as co-ordinator of Government activity, I deal with health matters. It is a very important area of activity.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The value added in this regard is well worthwhile.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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But the Taoiseach is paying the adviser to the Minister for Health and Children.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The role is assigned to my Department in regard to health matters; that is correct. It is paid for from my Department and the work in question continues and is necessary. The total budget for the Department of Health and Children is €14 billion. If the Minister wishes-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach said the adviser was paid because the Minister was a minority leader.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny should allow the Taoiseach to continue.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The work is necessary and the adviser is assigned to my Department. In addition to the Minister for Health and Children, I am involved in health matters and I chair the Cabinet sub-committee on health, which meets very regularly.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach said it was Angola so it is no wonder he is interested in it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach said it was like Angola so it is just as well-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I did not. The Deputy does not know what I was referring to. I was not referring to what the Deputy is suggesting I was referring to.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach said the Department of Health and Children was like Angola.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry there are not a few more to take Deputy Kenny's quotes but I am sure they will pick it up at some stage and see a few of them.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not my quotation but that of the Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy does not know what the quotation is about, why make it? If one wants to quote something, one should know what one is talking about.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I did not refer to the Department as Angola. I referred to the fact that, although one can leave on a Friday evening with a clear desk-----
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should not be backtracking.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----one can trip over a mine and have something arise from left-field that no one ever mentioned. One must deal with it. I will defend my time in the Department any time the Deputy wishes. If he has any issue he wants to raise with me in respect of my tenure in the Department, he should fee free to do so. He should feel free to table a question any time.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I commend the Taoiseach on retaining an interest in it.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have no problem dealing with my tenure in the Department of Health and Children.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask that the Taoiseach be allowed to continue without interruption.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I enjoyed it quite a lot. It was a very challenging Department. I have some understanding of the workload involved and of how issues can arise in the Department. I have some understanding of how, despite the best efforts of everybody, unexpected issues can arise in respect of which people would not be on notice, yet one is expected to have immediate and detailed replies in every respect. That is not often possible. That is the point I was making, but of course it has been conveyed in a different way by others for their own political purposes.
Let me return to the point. The point we are talking about relates to recruitment embargoes and other issues raised by the Deputy. The question of the appointment of special advisers is subject to guidelines outlined by the Department of Finance in respect of staff taken into the private offices of Ministers. One must obviously comply with those arrangements. That is what is done in the case in question, just as it was done under preceding Governments.
3:00 pm
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach stated the system pertaining to programme managers and special advisers dates from the early 1990s. I am sure he will recall that, at that stage, the idea was that there would be a single programme manager for each Department or Minister and a single adviser for each Minister, the idea being that the programme managers would drive the implementation of the programme for Government and the advisers would provide advice on policy areas. However, this seems to have mushroomed considerably during Fianna Fáil's term in office. I wish to put two issues to the Taoiseach, the first is that the numbers seem to have grown substantially, and the second is that the salaries seem to have grown. Today's Irish Independent refers to the salary for the top adviser, the programme manager to the Taoiseach, having doubled in the past ten years. Looking down the list of advisers that was published in the Irish Independent today, in the Taoiseach's Department a programme manager appears to be on a salary pretty close to the Secretary General of a Department. Two special advisers are on salaries the equivalent of deputy Secretary General. Two other advisers appear to be on salaries that are pretty close to that of an assistant Secretary General. The salaries of a further two advisers approximate to the salary of a principal officer. That appears to be an entirely parallel administration. Why is there requirement for such a number of programme managers and special advisers? When the practice began there was only one, but this is as many if not more than the number of deputy secretaries general and assistant secretaries general operating in the Department in the normal way. Surely there is huge duplication of activity between the normal Civil Service and the Fianna Fáil civil service-----
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----which is operating purely for the Taoiseach on a political basis, all of it at taxpayers' expense? To say that €2.7 million, or whatever was the cost since 2007, is small money begs the question of what type of advice they have been giving the Government since then.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with a few of the points made by the Deputy. I did not say it was small money; I said in the overall context of a total public service pay bill of €20 billion it is important when emphasis is put on the cost of special advisers that we see that it is a very small part of the total public service operation, both in the Civil Service and the wider public service. That is a matter of fact.
I appreciate the fact that Deputy Gilmore was not a member of the Labour Party when the system started, but the first leader of the Labour Party who introduced it had more than one adviser. He had three advisers. I well remember when Deputy Gilmore was preferred with a Ministry in the then Department of the Marine, he had an adviser. The Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, is in the same position in the same Department and he does not have an adviser. The proliferation seems to be selective depending on the circumstances of who Deputy Gilmore wants to talk about.
On a wider point on pay rates, which is an important one, the remuneration is related to specific Civil Service grades. The fact that there has been an increase in the past decade is an indication of the increase in salaries that have occurred within Civil Service grades. The suggestion that they were arbitrarily increased without reference to any guideline or, as the Deputy tried to imply, were some preferential parallel arrangement is incorrect. That should not be put on the record as having any substance in fact. The positions relate to existing grades. That has always been the case. There is no change in the situation.
Deputy Gilmore suggested that it all started off with one adviser per Minister. I made the point that a predecessor of the Deputy's quite rightly had more than one adviser. Otherwise, he would not have been able to do his job in the Tánaiste's office as it was wider than simply having a ministerial job. He took on those people. I am sure he was well served by them and would regard their appointments as having been justified in all the circumstances, not because one wishes to be profligate with taxpayers' money but one needs to ensure that there is independent and other advice available within Departments. One sometimes hears from the Opposition that I listen to those in my Department and to no one else, or that I am not making any arrangements to determine the other side of the argument. No matter what way one turns it appears there is an argument to be made. That is the nature of our adversarial politics but the fact is that for the past 17 years of Government in this country we have consistently had such arrangements. I agree we must ensure that people do their job responsibly and well. They are brought in by Ministers. Their tenure is in line with the Minister's tenure. Their pay is in line with established Civil Service grades and refers to their level of responsibility or whatever workload they take on. That has been the case for successive Governments and it will probably be the case for future Governments.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I did not question the necessity for programme managers and advisers. I accept that is necessary and that the Government has to have independent advice. What I am questioning is the numbers and from where the salaries came. It is not the case that programme managers were always paid the same salary as a Secretary General of a Department. I want to ask the Taoiseach two questions. First, when was the decision made to link the salary of a programme manager to that of a Secretary General of a Department? Second, given that it was not the case that special advisers were always paid the same as a deputy Secretary General of a Department, will the Taoiseach indicate when that decision was taken and how long have those two posts been linked to the two most senior posts in the Civil Service structure?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have that information. I have no problem in finding it out for the Deputy. The Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Act 2004 obviously post-dates the introduction. When the introduction of these posts came into place I am sure they were aligned with some range of responsibilities and subsequently-----
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It was around principal officer level.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, I believe it was higher than that, with respect.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It was not Secretary General.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is no point in me giving an opinion or reflecting back that far without checking out the facts. I can get them for the Deputy.