Dáil debates

Tuesday, 17 November 2009

3:00 pm

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Question 60: To ask the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs his views on whether the funding spent on translating official documents into Irish would be better spent on reviving the Irish language in view of the current economic climate; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41611/09]

Photo of Mary UptonMary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Question 64: To ask the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs his proposals to obtain savings in the operation of the Official Languages Act 2003; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41650/09]

4:00 pm

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 60 and 64 together.

I wish to assure the Deputies, and the House, that my Department has and will continue to work with Departments and other public bodies to assist them in meeting their obligations under the Act in the most efficient and cost-effective manner possible. I reiterate that the obligation under section 10 of the Act to publish documents simultaneously in Irish and English applies only to a limited number of key documents published by public bodies, including annual reports and accounts and documents setting out public policy proposals.

I have long advocated that documents such as these should be published by way of CDs or the Internet, rather than in hard copy. I am aware that a number of public bodies already follow this practice. The Coimisinéir Teanga specifically advocates this approach to public bodies in the guidebook on the Act published by his office circulated to all bodies in 2008. The Government adopted a similar policy last year as one of a number of measures designed to reduce costs across public bodies.

With regard to the issue of whether the level of funding spent on translating official documents into Irish would be better spent on reviving the Irish language, I believe that given the constitutional position of the Irish language and its application in the Ó Beoláin case of 2001, it would be a mistake to think there is a choice between implementing the Act - with consequent costs – and not implementing it. The Act provides a planning mechanism by which constitutional obligations can be met over time in a planned and coherent way. The alternative is an ad hoc approach, in which public bodies respond in a fragmentary and crisis management way to perhaps much more prescriptive judicial orders. Given its position as the first constitutional language, the objective of the Act is to ensure that delivery of public services by public bodies through the Irish language is seen as normal and as being required to meet minimum standards of customer service and corporate governance, rather than an optional extra or add-on. The provision of public services in Irish so that the citizen has the option of engaging in official business with State bodies through Irish, is essential to the future of the language.

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Last year the State and the local authorities spent €1.8 million on translation of documents. In the past six years, €6 million has been spent on the translation of documents. It is Fine Gael's view that this money could be better spent on the Irish language. It is like the film "Lost in Translation". This is what is happening - they are lost in translation.

I put it to the Minister that it is now time for a review of the Act itself. The Minister says he is telling local authorities and State agencies that putting information on their websites will do, rather then printing out all the documents. We cannot afford another €1.8 million next year. When there is talk of cutting the home help service, charging for medical cards and cutting services at hospitals, we cannot afford to spend €1.8 million translating documents that nobody wants.

The Minister is attending tomorrow's meeting of the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. Can we hear a review of the Act? Will the Minister agree at least to tell local authorities and State agencies they do not need to spend so much money? They should put documents up on their websites for people to download, which will cover their obligations under the Act. Will he issue a ministerial order, once and for all, telling them to do this?

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am all for saving money. We are all for saving money where money should be saved. However, if we have a first constitutional language, there are certain obligations involved to the users of that language.

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We cannot afford it any more.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a question of affording it. As I have pointed out, there is a constitutional obligation. If the Deputy believes we can no longer afford the Irish language-----

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I am not saying that. We cannot afford the translation.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy mentioned specifically the translation of local authority plans. As I said before, we do not see any need to produce hard copies. However, it is interesting to consider the case of County Clare.

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Then why are they doing so?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please allow the Minister to continue.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Let us consider the case of County Clare. I understand the local authority translated the county development plan into Irish and printed English and Irish-language versions. Great play was made of the fact that nobody bought the Irish-language version, but the county council does not have a record of how many hits the Internet page received. I asked my officials to check the numbers involved and was told that 190 copies of the English-language versions of the three plans had been bought over a four to five-year period, at a cost of €50 each. This equates to an average of 18 copies a year. It is obvious that people are downloading the documents, in Irish and English, from the Internet. Any sensible person would do this. In other words, nobody is buying them in any language. There are probably hundreds of copies of the English-language county plan, produced at enormous cost, lying around Clare County Council because people did not buy it when they could get it from the Internet.

The Deputy's colleague, Councillor Joe Arkins, put it well when he said that spending on the Irish language by county councils should occur not only during the good times but also in times of recession. Another Fine Gael councillor, Johnny Flynn, said the cost of translating the documents was 10 cent per resident of County Clare. There is money to be saved-----

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We cannot afford it.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We will discuss this in great detail at tomorrow's committee meeting. I will be able to prove that the translation of documents into Irish is saving the State considerable amounts of money, and I will bring a small level of physical evidence in with me to prove my point. It is saving funds.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I ask the Minister to conclude as Deputy O'Shea wishes to contribute.

Photo of Brian O'SheaBrian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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I find it mind-boggling to imagine that the translation of documents into Irish is saving the State funds. If the Minister can apply that economic principle to all State spending there will be no need for a €4 billion cutback.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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No; there will be.

Photo of Brian O'SheaBrian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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The arguments being presented by the Minister are legalistic. What we all want to see is greater use of the Irish language. That is the real issue. To be translating documents into Irish that, by the Minister's own admission, few people are reading even in English-----

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that.

Photo of Brian O'SheaBrian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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One hundred and ninety copies were bought.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy saying the county plan-----

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If the Minister would allow Deputies to put their questions and confine himself to answering them, we would make great progress.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I agree but it is very frustrating.

Photo of Brian O'SheaBrian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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He is preparing for Opposition, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I ask the Deputy to put his question.

Photo of Brian O'SheaBrian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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Is the Minister saying the expenditure on translating documents that are not read by a significant number of people - and whose Irish versions are not read to any significant degree even on the Internet - is justified in contrast to other, more productive spending which would promote the use of the Irish language?

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is correct.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I must clarify that I never said or intended to convey the idea that nobody read the Clare county plan or that people were not using it every day. I imagine that if one looked at the number of hits for the county plan on the website one would see it was one of the most used documents, in Irish and English, to be found anywhere. County plans are working documents that are used every day. What I said was that there were few people stupid enough to pay €50 for a document they can get free from the Internet.

We will, I hope, have a detailed and rational debate about this tomorrow. When we were framing the Bill and debating it in the House, we discussed the balance between the right of the citizen to use the first official language in communicating with the State and the cost of producing documents. We tried to take a middle road, that is, that certain basic documents would be seen as a fundamental right of the citizen.

The question of usage is a vexed one when we are talking about rights. We know that habitual Irish speakers are a minority. If we say a document should not be published because many people would not use it, this has mind-boggling implications for a whole set of minority rights. When we are dealing with minorities, the numbers will always be much lower. We must tease out the question of whether minorities - particularly in this case, as the minority is using the first official language of the State - have some rights to basic documents in Irish and, if so, which documents. As the Deputy knows, I am open to debate.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I would like to bring in Deputy McGinley, if the Minister will allow.

Photo of Dinny McGinleyDinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister aware that on Report Stage of the National Asset Management Agency Bill, under amendment No. 223 in the name of the Minister, section 7 of the Official Languages Act was set aside? We will not immediately have a translation of that Act into the first official language.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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As a member of Cabinet, I am aware of that. I understand the reason is that translation in the House comes under the remit of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, but it was not in a position to ensure the Irish-language version would be ready when the Bill was signed by the President. The problem arising is that under section 7 of the Official Languages Act, the Bill is not enacted until versions in the two languages are available. The Houses of the Oireachtas is dealing with the matter and I have no doubt it will get full co-operation from the relevant Department.

I must further point out that, separately from the Official Languages Act, there is a constitutional obligation to translate all Acts of the Oireachtas into the Irish language. The Act states that the Irish version of an Act should be produced at the same time as the English version, which is to protect us against constitutional challenge in the courts. That is the difficulty.