Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 6: To ask the Minister for Defence the number of members of the Permanent Defence Force by rank who have retired to date in 2009 before reaching the mandatory retirement age for their rank; the number by rank who have retired on age grounds; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34803/09]

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Question 23: To ask the Minister for Defence the impact the moratorium on recruitment and promotion is having on the operational effectiveness of the Defence Force; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34808/09]

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to answer Questions Nos. 6 and 23 together.

I am advised by the military authorities that the number of officers of the Permanent Defence Force to retire in the period 1 January to 30 September 2009 before reaching the mandatory retirement age for their rank was 25. A further 23 retired on age grounds. In the case of enlisted personnel, the number discharged prior to reaching the mandatory retirement age was 228, while 47 retired on age grounds. Including figures for deceased personnel, this brings the total number of personnel to leave the Permanent Defence Force to 335 up to 30 September 2009. The tabular statements I will provide to the Deputy give a detailed breakdown of the figures by rank.

I am keenly aware of the impact that measures such as the moratorium on recruitment, promotion and acting appointments are having on the Permanent Defence Forces in light of the very high turnover rate that is part of any military organization.

The turnover rate has increased significantly in recent months. I am advised by the military authorities that the strength of the Defence Forces at 30 September 2009, the last date for which figures are available, is 10,081. My focus is on retaining the capacity of the organization to operate effectively across all roles. This will represent a significant challenge in the coming months. I am in contact with my colleague the Minister for Finance with regard to targeted exemptions from the moratorium. The impact of the moratorium is being kept under constant review.

I have secured the Minister for Finance's approval for the recruitment of 42 Army and Naval Service cadets this year. Approval has been also received for 42 acting-up positions for the current Chad contingent and 20 acting-up positions for the next Kosovo deployment. Sanction has been also received to fill the posts of Deputy Chief of Staff (Operations), two posts at Brigadier General and the Director of Military Prosecutions by way of promotion. Within the past week the promotion has proceeded of 10 NCOs who had commenced the process prior to the moratorium.

I am advised that at this time the Defence Forces retain the capacity to undertake the tasks laid down by Government at home and overseas.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister's establishment figure for the strength of the Defence Forces was 10,500 and already the figure has fallen to 10,000. If this trend continues it could fall to 9,500 by the end of 2010. The Minister will accept that there is a brain drain and generally the command structure will be damaged. There are now positions of command that are not filled, which could lead to confusion and, further down the road, a threat to lives on overseas missions. I welcome the Minister's comments on promotions, because people were leaving the Defence Forces for that reason. There is a leave of absence scheme for the public service at the moment, but that does not apply to the Army. People are certainly very annoyed because it does not apply to them.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Through the implementation of the White Paper since 2000, we have seen significant changes in the Army, in terms of the quality of personnel, equipment and training. My advice is that the organisation is now in a very healthy state in terms of personnel and equipment. It is true that the McCarthy report proposes that we reduce the size of the Permanent Defence Force from 10,500 to 10,000 over two to three years. In the meantime, we have a moratorium on recruitment to the public sector, which includes the Army. Almost uniquely among public service organisations, there is a very high turnover of personnel in the Army. Many people who were not due to retire on age grounds left the Army for one reason or another, even since 1 January 2009. The fact that we cannot recruit to replace those people means that the overall number is dropping quite precipitously.

I do not accept Deputy Deenihan's contention that the command structure is falling apart, but I do accept that there are problems. In a detailed submission I sent to the Minister for Finance, I have asked to be allowed to recruit people at least to replace the people we are losing until the Estimates process concludes and we decide whether or not to implement the recommendations of the McCarthy report in whole, in part or not at all. We have problems with people who are acting up to positions but who are not getting the appropriate allowance. These people are also affected by the moratorium. We are also having a problem with promotions. I have got around some of those problems, as I indicated in my original reply, but I have made submissions to the Minister for Finance on the other issues. I am hoping that we will have a decision on that before the next question time on defence issues.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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There is much unease among the Defence Forces at the moment, and I think the Minister got that cold wind yesterday when he was at the PDFORRA conference. They are just not happy. People must be encouraged to stay in the Defence Forces. Unlike other public service bodies, they reacted to the white paper and reduced their number from over 14,000 to 10,500. They have complied with every request that was made of them. When the Defence Forces are asked to do something, they do it. However, they now feel they are being victimised vis-À-vis other public service sectors. The Minister must support the Defence Forces. He will have to get some concessions on promotions. The moratorium on recruitment must be reviewed at the end of the year. It is one of the few proposals from the McCarthy report that has already occurred without even being implemented.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Which proposals on defence from the McCarthy report does Deputy Deenihan actually support?

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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I support many parts of the report.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Questions come from the Opposition for the Government.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I am waiting to find that out. Maybe we will find out before 4.45 p.m. As I have acknowledged to the House, the moratorium-----

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is rattled.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I am not in the least bit rattled. The Deputy flatters himself.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister, without interruption.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I have already acknowledged that the moratorium is having a particular impact on the Army, because of its large turnover of people. We are now down to 10,081, whereas we should have 10,500. We are being affected by the moratorium more than any other public service organisation. I have made that case very strongly to the Minister for Finance and I appreciate Deputy Deenihan's support. I am sure he supports me in that case.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely, but the Minister for Finance is not listening to the Minister for Defence.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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That remains to be decided. We have quite a few concessions so far, but the recruitment, the acting up and the limited number of promotions are all absolutely vital. We will have decisions on that very shortly. The budgetary process is only beginning today with regard to Cabinet meetings.

The conditions of the Army have improved out of all proportion in the last ten years due to investment in training, infrastructure, quality of personnel, equipment and so on. This has happened because the Government has invested a great amount of money in the Army. At the moment, we have a crisis in the public finances. Every Department has to take its share of the pain. We do not like taking it, as we would prefer to be spending money rather than cutting back. We all want to be liked, but I know of Deputy Deenihan's claim to be in favour of public expenditure reductions. Which proposals from the McCarthy report that deal with defence does he favour?

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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I am favour of many of the proposals, but Deputy O'Dea is the Minister, at least for another week.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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The Minister informed us that 25 officers from the Defence Forces retired before reaching the mandatory pension age, as did 228 enlisted men. He has indicated that most of those are from the Army, but how exactly did they break down? Was there any pattern to the retirements of these people? Did it come later in the year or earlier in the year? We are dealing with a period from 1 January to 30 September. Is there a trend towards more people retiring as the year went on?

I understand people are concerned that gratuity lump sums will be taxed in the forthcoming budget. That seems to be a major issue. I congratulate the Minister on the issue relating to the 42 Army and Naval Service cadets. It was an achievement and we should acknowledge that. However, why has there been no recruitment into the Air Corps for the last two years?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the figures in the body of the answer for the breakdown from the Army, Naval Service and the Air Corps, but I think the Deputy will find it in the tabular statement. If it is not there, he can get back to me and I will obtain the figures for him. I do not know the details of the time pattern of retirement either, but I will get the information for him in so far as I can do so.

I do not think Deputy O'Shea expects me to tell him what the position will be with respect to the gratuity. I cannot offer any words of reassurance or otherwise on that issue. That is a budgetary matter and it will be decided.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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We will know after Saturday whether the Minister will be allowed to decide.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy O'Shea will know the exact position in December when the budget is delivered by the Minister for Finance.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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The Minister is optimistic.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I am optimistic by nature.

I will also get the Deputy some up to date information on the Air Corps.