Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Shortall and the Labour Party for proposing the motion, which the Fine Gael Party is pleased to support without equivocation.

This is a relevant time to discuss FÁS. We have 12.6% unemployment, the third highest in the euro zone behind Belgium and Spain, and there are currently 440,000 people on the live register. While all of us have had a lot to think about this week, in terms of how this House works and the way we run our own operations, we have a great deal to do to change things before people will take us seriously or accept the kind of measures that will be necessary to save this country from the abyss. We should not forget that the overriding issue now facing our country is unemployment and the many more who will continue to lose their jobs as the country remains uncompetitive and fails to take the measures, painful though they may be, which are necessary to restore the country's economy to health.

I should note that FÁS does good work across the country. It is important to acknowledge that. I say it in every interview I do on FÁS - it rarely gets picked up by the media but I would like to again put that on the record. The majority of ordinary FÁS staff do a very good job. During the Lisbon treaty campaign I had the opportunity to meet many of them and while some of them, and Deputies Shortall, Allen and others, were angry with me for highlighting this issue, the majority were glad that the FÁS scandal had been aired and they now rely on us to ensure it is restructured and that its corporate culture changes, whether it is the executive at the top or the bullying and intimidation throughout the organisation by people largely associated with the Government parties seeking preferment for their constituents.

The FÁS scandal has been ongoing for more than a year. It started with anonymous letters, which were initially sent to the Minister, Deputy Harney and were subsequently sent to us, and audit reports which we were able to release to the media. It is important to note that we had great difficulty initially getting that information into the media. I will keep the details for my memoirs, but needless to say one major news company refused to carry the story. I was not surprised when I learned that many journalists were wined and dined, flown first class by FÁS around the world and accommodated. We found out how much money FÁS spent, totally inappropriately, on advertising in a large number of media organisations. The people who spent that money were not just wasting taxpayers' money, they knew exactly what they were doing. They were buying the silence of the Fourth Estate, that is, the media.

In many ways Ministers have not behaved very differently in the preferential treatment they have given to journalists on their ministerial travel over the years. I am glad that silence has now ended and that we can see a real clean-out of this country, starting in the Dáil, moving on to our media and other establishments and all the way down the line to the hundreds of thousands of people in this country who receive tax-funded unvouched expenses, allowances, tax exemptions and other benefits. We now have a great opportunity to clean up this country and turn it into a much better place.

I raised this issue in the Dáil in May 2008 and the Tánaiste's response was that FÁS had clarified its procedures and strengthened its controls and she wanted to know no more about it. Deputy Kenny raised the matter in July 2008. The Taoiseach told us he had the highest regard for Rody Molloy, that he could depend on him at all times and that he would defend him at all times. Subsequently there were revelations in the Sunday Independent by Nick Webb and Senator Shane Ross. The matter was then investigated by the Committee of Public Accounts. We then had a Dáil debate on it and had a series of reports from the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The Tánaiste's attitude to this matter was the same throughout. I do not blame her for FÁS. I do not think she was responsible for the things that went on there. I blame her less than I do her two predecessors, the Minister, Deputy Harney and the Minister, Deputy Martin, but her approach to FÁS was always very clear. This was a bad news story she just wanted to go away and she was prepared to pay any money to make it go away, whether it was pension top-ups, bonuses or a free car. She wanted the story to go away so she could spend her time doing what she wants to do, which is travelling around the country, opening offices and so on. That has been her approach to this issue throughout.

Her approach to the board was similar. First she backed it, then she said she would accept resignations and in between there was some suggestion of a press release supporting its members. We also had the issue of FÁS executives, the people who are most responsible for this and who have largely escaped unscathed. They include people like Greg Craig, a former Fianna Fáil candidate and employee of former Fianna Fáil members of the parliamentary party and someone who received the support of the trade union movement in retaining his job. The extent of the complicity of what has gone on in FÁS is shocking and shameful.

We now have a new board and CEO, but what is missing is political direction and real policy on the sort of training agency we want to have in the future. That must be the most important thing because we need to move on from this scandal and all the other scandals in this country and start to reshape our democracy, public sector and State bodies.

The regional directorate of FÁS corporate on Baggot Street and all that is associated with it costs €150 million a year to fund and most of that does not need to continue. The employment programmes and community employment schemes cost €430 million a year, and they should continue. They are not effective labour market measures. They have an important social role and are now more important than ever, but the appropriate role for such programmes is local government and not a State bureaucracy. The apprenticeships and training integration cost €108 million a year. In many ways our apprenticeship system is the model for apprenticeships in the world and should remain in place, either in a new FÁS or as part of the broader education sector.

Training for people in employment costs €122 million a year and I have serious concerns about the way that money is spent and is farmed out to organisations which had representatives on the boards. We need to examine this issue from scratch, probably using the skillnets model as the more effective way of training people in employment. That is not to say everything in skillnets is perfect but the model is a good one.

Some €248 million is spent on training for employment. There are courses of various quality but the key issue is to provide people with the kind of training they need and not the kind we think they need or that FÁS happens to make available. Perhaps the best way of using that €248 million, which is a lot of money in any one year, is to give people who have been made redundant that money as a voucher which they could then use to get the kind of training they need. If graduates, that may mean going to a higher level institution and doing a masters degree or a PhD. It may mean going to a VEC or to an institution of further education and acquiring the training they need there. We need a model for the delivery of training, with the money going to the person who requires the training or is being made redundant. We should not expect people who have been made redundant to fit into the systems we create for them, what FÁS happens to make available for them or for what they happen to qualify or be eligible.

We also need to have a one stop shop for the unemployed. I do not understand why a person must go to the Department of Social and Family Affairs to get their welfare payments and is then sent to the LES, FÁS or a different partnership, depending on the case. We need to have a simple, straightforward one stop shop for people who are unemployed so they can claim their benefits and enter training straight away. We also need to integrate FÁS with our social welfare system. We need to examine models such as those in Denmark, Holland and other countries which have flexible social welfare systems, where welfare payments are more generous than they are here but are also highly conditional on people agreeing to participate in training and community service. There is a major opportunity to integrate FÁS and the entire welfare system. We should start, in terms of remodelling the system, with those under 25 years of age.

I again thank the Labour Party for tabling this motion. I support it. I thank the members of the Committee of Public Accounts for their role in this. I express my disgust at the Government, Fianna Fáil, the executives in FÁS, who shamelessly continue to hold their jobs, and those in the media who received hospitality from FÁS and continued to write well of it and ill of members of the Committee of Public Accounts. This scandal will go on and on. There is much more to come, and if I could verify and prove it I could put it in the public domain. We must move on from it, rebuild FÁS and remodel the way training and employment works in this country.

Margaret Conlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to share time with Deputy Cregan, the Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher and Deputies Moynihan, Blaney and Mattie McGrath.

Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Margaret Conlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased to have an opportunity to contribute to this evening's debate. The shocking absence of financial control within FÁS, as set out in a recent report, is disgraceful and utterly unacceptable to the Irish people. It is necessary for the Tánaiste to get to the root of the problem and to ensure this type of activity will not be repeated. She is working and will continue to work hard to that end. Many processes and systems are being put in place. Certain officials within FÁS blew part of that organisation's huge budget. It beggars belief that a car can go missing. How can a company spend hundreds of thousands of euro on an advertisement without bothering to run it? In any business, all moneys that are spent have to be fully accounted for. In this case, however, there was a totally immoral process of waste. I was happy to learn this week that the Garda investigation into this matter is bearing fruit. I expect that to continue. I hold no brief for anyone who is involved in wrongdoing. I will never condone it. The actions of Mr. Rody Molloy were wrong, abhorrent and immoral. He should do the right and honourable thing by repaying the moneys to the Exchequer.

I concur with many elements of the Private Members' motion that has been tabled. I would like some of them to be introduced. There is a need for revised guidelines and severance packages for people who leave the public service. I am confident that the Minister for Finance will introduce these necessary amendments. As we have said on many occasions, December's budget will be one of the toughest of all time. I agree with Deputy Varadkar that the Members of the Oireachtas have to be seen to do our bit and to lead by example. The forthcoming budget gives the Minister an ideal opportunity to radically and thoroughly assess all expenses, packages and forms of remuneration. The real victims of this waste are this country's many unemployed people who hope to avail of the upskilling and reskilling services provided by FÁS.

I commend the many thousands of excellent FÁS staff whose morale has been affected by this affair. I empathise with them as they see their organisation dragged through the media on a daily basis and as each of them are tarred with the same brush. It is sordid that the unregulated media can attack people from every angle in the hope that their sales figures will increase for one day. One's belief in why one is doing something can diminish in such circumstances. It is unfair and unwarranted that FÁS's good and decent workers have become demoralised. Greater accountability and transparency are needed in FÁS, just as they are in the Oireachtas. I urge the Minister for Finance to put in place a system in which all expenses are vouched. While it might not lead to huge savings, it will give every citizen of this country facts about what taxpayers' money is being spent on That is the least we should be providing.

In addition to providing for greater accountability within FÁS, we need to improve the governance provided by its board and strengthen the organisation's answerability to this House. The decision to reduce the size of the board from 17 to 11 and to change its composition represents a huge step in restoring public confidence. If FÁS is to focus on its training and employment mandate, it needs to enjoy total respect. The Government is committed to continuing to offer those who have lost their jobs the assistance they need. Training and education have never been more important for everyone in the workforce than they are in the current tough employment climate. We must assist individuals by providing education and training opportunities. The Tánaiste has been working to double the number of activation, training and work experience places. The superb staff of FÁS are working hard on behalf of those who have lost their jobs. As morale is low, we must build it back up. Those who provide the front-line service can make or break the opportunities that are offered to unemployed people. The reform of FÁS is necessary if we are to restore the confidence of the public in the organisation. As politicians, we have a duty to reform our systems so that the confidence of citizens in the Oireachtas is restored in advance of the many difficult decisions that will be taken in the near future.

John Cregan (Limerick West, Fianna Fail)
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Like my colleagues, I welcome the opportunity to make a contribution to this important debate. I welcome and support the amendment that has been submitted by the Tánaiste. Deputy Varadkar said that when he raised this issue in the Dáil in May 2008, the Tánaiste did not want to know about it. That is not true. I am being kind when I use the word "untrue". I will refer to the various actions that have been taken by the Tánaiste since May 2008, when it became evident, following the publication of an internal report by FÁS and a special report by the Comptroller and Auditor General, that difficulties were emerging within the organisation. Following the publication of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, the Tánaiste took immediate steps to deal with the problems that had been identified. She met the chairman and director general of FÁS in June 2008 to seek assurances that the issues raised in the special report were being addressed. She emphasised the importance of FÁS securing value for money in its expenditure.

The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, like all members of Fianna Fáil and the Government as a whole, want taxpayers' money to be properly, wisely and prudently spent. It is wrong for Opposition Deputies to claim the higher moral ground, as if they want certain standards but we do not. That is not the case. It is important to nail that lie. The Tánaiste asked the Secretary General of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to write to the then director general of FÁS to request a comprehensive report setting out the measures the organisation had taken to tighten its internal controls and prevent a recurrence of the practices raised in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. The then director general responded in writing on 1 July 2008, setting out in detail the remedial actions taken in addressing the concerns of the Tánaiste and her Department. When further issues came to light in September 2008, the Tánaiste once more asked the Comptroller and Auditor General to consider them. She demanded an examination and an investigation of the irregularities and wrongdoing that were becoming evident and called for a further report to be prepared. I am glad this was done.

The Tánaiste acted quickly and in the best interests of the taxpayers of this country at all times. I commend her on that and acknowledge the effort she made during a very difficult period for FÁS. We have to acknowledge the fantastic work that is being done at all levels, with the exception of corporate governance, within FÁS. As we make representations on behalf of our constituents each day, we see the fantastic benefits FÁS can bring, predominantly in its retraining and upskilling role. It does all of that work in an absolutely brilliant fashion. I accept that mistakes were made. When the Tánaiste puts in place new practices in FÁS, and other Ministers draw up similar regulations and practices, with the best will in the world they still have to depend on people who are in a position of trust. I refer to people who are being paid by the country's taxpayers to show personal responsibility. I regret to say that in the absence of such responsibility, neither the Tánaiste nor anyone else can stop wrongdoing like that associated with FÁS. There will always be wrongdoing. We have seen it before and I am sure we will see it again. Certain people do not live up to their personal responsibilities when they are placed in a position of trust. The blame for many of this country's scandals has been laid at the door of Ministers. I accept that the buck stops with the Government. The majority of such scandals were caused by people who lacked a sense of personal responsibility. They were put in positions of trust, but they showed scant regard for it and squandered taxpayers' money. That should never happen, but it has happened and it will happen again. All the Tánaiste or anyone else can do is ensure that we examine what went on, put it right and implement improved practices. We hope those who will be entrusted with positions of great responsibility in this country in the future will live up to those responsibilities. We should get value for taxpayers' money, which should be spent wisely.

I am pleased to have had an opportunity to speak on this important amendment. I commend the Tánaiste and wish her well. I am sure she will see this out and we will see the right result for FÁS. I wish FÁS well in the future.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion. I was Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs when the difficulties we are discussing first came to our attention. The Tánaiste at all times acted with the utmost probity and was conscious of the need to address the problems as they unfolded. Factually incorrect assertions have been made that she did not act on time or in good faith. On foot of receiving a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General in June 2008, she acted immediately to ask the then director general of FÁS to put in place appropriate procedures. That was the first indication difficulties had arisen in FÁS. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report pointed out deficiencies in the area of corporate affairs and auditing. Further revelations subsequently came to light regarding travel expenses and the science challenge programme and, again, the Tánaiste responded quickly and effectively.

People seem to have forgotten that the Committee of Public Accounts had already started an investigation when the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is an independent official with a statutory responsibility for ensuring public funds are not misappropriated, agreed to a request by the Tánaiste for further investigation of the issues that had arisen. The Comptroller and Auditor General agreed to investigate after the Committee of Public Accounts reached its conclusions in October and November 2008.

It is accepted that an abuse of public funds took place and that money was spent in an unacceptable and wasteful manner but it is incorrect to suggest that the Tánaiste was unaware of the gravity of the matter. From the moment these issues came to light, she acted at all times in the best interests of the taxpayer and FÁS.

The Committee of Public Accounts has held further investigations and the Comptroller and Auditor General has made his report. The Tánaiste has gone beyond several of the recommendations they made on establishing a new board and introducing amending legislation. Allegations of cronyism have been shouted across the floor of the House. If the Deputies making these allegations had the wit to study the Labour Services Act 1987, they would understand how the board is appointed. It is for nominating bodies and not the Minister of the day to propose the members of the board.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste is changing the procedure so that she can nominate them herself.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let us live in the real world.

Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody interrupted Deputy Varadkar. I ask him to allow the Minister of State to continue.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should read the legislation because it clearly sets out how to the board is to be appointed. It is incorrect to suggest that nominating bodies are putting forward cronies.

A serious allegation was made last night to the effect that the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance were acting outside the law but I subsequently clarified the issues surrounding the legality of the severance payment for the former director general of FÁS, Mr. Rody Molloy. The statutory basis for the payment arrangement is section 6(3) of the Labour Services Act 1987. I draw attention to the fact that sections 6 and 7 of the Superannuation and Pensions Act 1963 pertain solely to civil servants. We accept that breaches of fundamental trust and abuses of taxpayer money took place but it is wrong to suggest that FÁS was an organisation of cronies or that the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance acted outside the law in the context of removing the director general of FÁS. The Tánaiste acted as quickly as possible to address the difficulties but the people concerned also have rights and entitlements.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. The Tánaiste has been diligent in resolving the difficulties that have arisen in FÁS in the past 18 months.

FÁS has been doing Trojan work through its community employment schemes, particularly in rural and disadvantaged communities, but it is being tarnished by what has happened in its upper echelons. If run properly, it could be one of the best organisations in the country. I note that the Tánaiste has introduced legislation to reform FÁS but every organisation which spends a cent of taxpayers' money must be made accountable to this House. We are answerable to the public through elections and in turn we have to ensure taxpayers receive value for their money.

Even while questions were being asked about the use of funds by the upper echelons of FÁS, its staff were encountering difficulties in maintaining community employment schemes. Deputies from all sides have sought additional places on these schemes over the years. It is sickening that the funding we thought was being invested in training schemes was actually being spent on activities which had little or nothing to do with getting people back to employment. Excellent work was being done on the ground by decent and genuine staff to help people with employment difficulties.

We have to ensure we introduce legislation which provides accountability. The Labour Services Act 1987 attempted to ensure that a variety of interests was represented on the board of FÁS but further accountability is required. Politicians are blamed when anything goes wrong in the public sector but the difficulties which have arisen are not the result of misappropriation by any Member of these Houses. If we have to take responsibility, we must also have accountability. The legislation proposed by the Tánaiste will clean up the situation. Excellent work is being done by FÁS but a few people have messed up the corporate sector for everybody else. I commend the amendment to the House.

I welcome the opportunity to address this Private Members' motion on the floor of the House tonight and also to commend the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coughlan, on her steps taken to deal with the unsatisfactory procedures of a small number of individuals involved in the training support agency, FÁS. From a relatively early stage in her role as Minister, she set about investigating irregularities in the agency. The Labour Party motion has highlighted all of the points that came out of investigations set in place by the Tánaiste. We all know about the matters raised in the Private Members' motion tonight because the Tánaiste initiated investigations by the Comptroller and Auditor General which have resulted in two separate Garda investigations and one file with the DPP. As the House will be aware, there has been a case before the courts during the week, and I believe we will see more. Let us be clear about from where all of the investigations are emanating. It is disingenuous of the Labour Party to give the impression that the Tánaiste sat on her hands and did nothing, which could not be further from the truth.

On the manner in which the director general was ousted from his position, it took courage to act the way the Tánaiste did. This myth that she should have sacked him with no pension rights after 35 years of service goes against the Labour Party's own agendas on workers' rights. The reality is that the only way of removing the director general of FÁS and saving the reputation of what is a relatively good agency was exactly how the Tánaiste did it, and the Opposition is cutting itself by saying otherwise.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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I hope an unfortunate porter would be treated in the same way.

If the Tánaiste acted in the manner suggested by the Opposition, the agency of FÁS would be on its knees currently. Thanks to the brave decision making by the Tánaiste, this is not the case.

There are three items on the wish list at the end of the Labour Party motion, namely to restructure the board of FÁS along the lines proposed in the report of the Committee of Public Accounts, to refocus FÁS on its core work as the State training agency, capable of meeting the needs of those seeking employment, by providing relevant and high-quality training, and to ensure stringent accountability and oversight in respect of the spending of public moneys within both FÁS and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. We all hold those aspirations and the reality is that the Tánaiste held them before any of us. The gist of them, if they have not already taken place, are in the process of coming into being. It is only fair that we deal with facts and truths in here rather than with myths. It is not fair that we have a knee-jerk reactions to much of what is going on in the media and elsewhere.

In the current climate, the role of FÁS has never been more important. I am particularly proud that the Tánaiste has protected the agency of FÁS. It could have been lost as an agency if she had not acted as she did.

There are many good people across this country working in FÁS where much good work takes place. While there have been some irregularities, it is important to point out the good elements in FÁS over many years and in the organisation which preceded it, AnCO. The agency has played an important role in our country's development over a long number of years and it is very much required now, in particular, to play a strong role in our road to recovery. I, for one, am thankful that the agency will be there to take up the cudgel to provide training places for those who have lost their jobs in recent times and get them into a position where they can get employment in the near future.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)
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It is with a heavy heart that I stand here this evening to speak on this Private Members' motion on what happened at FÁS. I can remember a good many years ago when we started off with AnCO and then moved on to FÁS. I mention the organisation's many schemes, such as the community employment schemes, the social economy schemes and community service programmes, its proud history and the valuable work that has been done in transforming our country's graveyards, playing fields, community services programmes, day care centres, community alert, visiting of the elderly and social services.

As a cathaoirleach of a community employment scheme employing five and an excellent supervisor in my parish, I must pay tribute to the many sponsor groups which had the initiative to seek these schemes out for a number of purposes to get their parishes and communities up and running and to take their proud place. With regard to tidy towns and tidy villages, I would mention Emily in my county which won the tidy towns competition this year.

I also must praise the supervisors, who do an excellent job under all kinds of pressures from everybody, and of course the schemes' participants who otherwise would be on the dole queues and generate a significant tab which would have to be paid for by social welfare. They have given of their time for little more than what they would earn on the dole.

I have taken issue with the Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, and with Deputy Quinn when he was the Minister visiting Tipperary years ago, on the question of enhancing these schemes. The Minister of State and others were shocked by the number of participants we had in south Tipperary. This was because we had committees - some of which were limited companies by guarantee to safeguard themselves but most of which were voluntary groups - set up which were willing to enable these schemes to take place and which helped all of the participants to take part, and undertook the onerous duties of employment legislation, workers rights and health and safety. The voluntary boards did so much work, as did the participants and the supervisors.

A special thanks must go to the FÁS local officers. I will mention a few here with whom I deal - Mr. Liam O'Brien in Tipperary, and Ms Catherine Corbett, Ms Mary O'Keeffe and Mr. Tom Murphy in Waterford - who are top-class officials in FÁS with impeccable records.

We have annual audits carried out by accountants and every ha'penny is accounted for. I remember a scheme where socks were provided with the safety boots and there was a considerable issue over why we provided those at a cost a couple of euro. Then one sees what happened at the top involving a small number where greed came into it and gave a bad name to everyone in FÁS.

I wish the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the best of luck in trying to sort out the mess and in the restructuring of the board. It is a pity this happened. We have a long way to go and many corrections to make. It is a scandal and such a shame for FÁS workers on the ground who are providing such valuable services. The controversy is destroying the morale of the committees, the supervisors and the many hundreds, if not thousands, of good officials in FÁS.

It is my strong belief that CE schemes and the other schemes must be broadened as they provide excellent services to communities. FÁS must be refocused to concentrate on the services on the ground, cut out the waste at the top and pump the money into the local schemes, the jobs clubs and local training. It needs to return to its roots and the purpose for which it was set up in the first place. That is why I am calling for the re-establishment of FÁS from the top down to rebuild it and set it back to where it was.

The Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, will be aware that a few months ago I raised an issue here which was a significant problem in my constituency, namely the closure of a jobs club in Carrick-on-Suir, which, as most Members will be aware, is an unemployment black spot. The Carrick-on-Suir jobs club dealt with 850 clients per year in the past three years and placed approximately 100 persons in jobs or further training each year, and it was summarily dismissed.

Two members of staff who were employed with Carrick-on-Suir jobs club were made redundant when the jobs club closed down. It so happened that this occurred the same week the famous Mr. Molloy resigned over controversy, and look what a pay-out he got. These two staff members were not involved in any expenses controversy whatsoever. Unlike Mr. Molloy, they did not receive a golden handshake. In fact, up until today they have not received their statutory redundancy payments. It is an outrage and a disgrace.

That is a clear example of what is going on in FÁS. The top people made decisions to cut everything at bottom level while they were living it up. This must be addressed. FÁS must be re-established on a creditable basis.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I wish to share time with Deputies Mary Upton, Ruairí Quinn, Kathleen Lynch and Jan O'Sullivan.

The recent scandals at FÁS have taken the organisation to such new lows that its name alone evokes any number of negative connotations. Its unfortunate association with the Fianna Fáil Party has cast a further shadow over its reputation. Whether one argues that this patronage is real or perceived, it is now time to end the era of the nod and the wink and sever the long association with the Fianna Fáil movement. It is time to break this unofficial link and rebuild the organisation so that FÁS can re-ignite a sense of trust in those who avail of its services. Let us be sure that people will from now on be 100% confident that FÁS is apolitical in its approach to everything it does. We must strive to bring FÁS back from the brink and excise from its employment anyone who is being carried unnecessarily. Its upper echelons have tarnished the authority's standing in the public eye. The reasons for this are well documented and have been covered extensively by my colleague, Deputy Shortall.

However, we must be mindful of the fact that there is much to praise in FÁS. The Labour Party is determined to assist in the restoration of its reputation. It is important to acknowledge the good work that currently goes on in FÁS, which has a network of 66 regional offices and 20 training centres across the country. The majority of its work is carried out at a grass-roots level through the hard work of its training and education supervisors, employment scheme participants, business advisers and recruitment specialists. It has specifically catered for the marginalised in our society. Through initiatives aimed at people with disabilities and members of the Traveller community, FÁS has always sought to empower and include all citizens of our country at a grass-roots level. Its wider horizons initiative aims at increasing understanding among young people north and south of the Border, reconciling the two traditions while increasing work skills for every participant. At ground level, the work carried out by FÁS helps people from all walks of life to find jobs and obtain training, and promotes work throughout our communities. We must not ignore this.

My experience of FÁS at a local level has been positive, and it would be unfair to associate the local workers with the shenanigans of those within the hierarchy. What these people on the ground represent is far removed from what the hierarchy has come to embody. Where it represented neglect, the work of those on the ground is characterised by a sense of duty and obligation to the people they were supervising through the community employment schemes and in the various offices throughout the 66 centres. Where waste is widespread among a minority at the upper level, the majority have come to represent a significant investment in our communities. This cannot be overlooked in our efforts to reform the organisation. FÁS has given hope to many in terms of their own personal circumstances and those of their neighbourhoods. I am representative of a largely rural constituency and I have seen first hand the benefits yielded by the community schemes, spearheaded by FÁS and managed by local people working within those communities.

As with all State-funded bodies, cutbacks have affected the services offered to people in both rural and urban communities. The idea that the waste at the top level of FÁS ran parallel with the reduction of valuable services to communities has angered the public and the body politic alike. We have every right to be angry but we must differentiate between the person in the board room and the worker on the street. Our anger must be channelled appropriately. This anger laments the fact that this fine institution should have become a vessel for such waste when it has been a force for good. I believe it can be a force for good again, but we must bring about the necessary changes.

Mary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Since its inception in 1987, FÁS has undoubtedly provided vital training, support and education to workers throughout the country. Through its various training courses, employment fairs and recruitment services, FÁS offers people a chance for educational betterment and future employment. Now, more than ever - as Deputy Sherlock has just said - such activities are of paramount importance to many sectors and workers within our economy.

I have no doubt the overwhelming majority of FÁS's staff of more than 2,000, in its 66 offices and 20 training centres throughout the country, are hard-working and diligent employees who endeavour to develop FÁS into the vibrant organisation it was originally intended to be. Undoubtedly, the 40,000 who completed FÁS training programmes and the further 25,288 who completed employment programmes in 2008 would speak positively of the merits and values of the organisation. Unfortunately, however, that is not what we are discussing this evening. It is not what people are talking to me about when I go out canvassing or what they are discussing around their kitchen tables at home. Instead, we are talking about another case of greed and incompetence. We are discussing golden handshakes and senses of entitlement when we should be talking about the 424,000 people on the live register and the effect that unemployment is having on them and their families. We should be considering how we can best meet their training or retraining requirements through FÁS.

It is clear there has been serious breakdown and decay within the upper echelons of FÁS, leading to the astoundingly profligate spending and numerous wasteful acts which are tarnishing the reputation and legacy of the organisation. This culture of entitlement that seems to exist in the rarefied air of some semi-state bodies needs to change. How can the Government tell people on social welfare or hard-pressed public servants that they must take the pain when they see that €600,000 was spent on a television advertisement that was never aired? How can the Government call for pay restraint when the public has seen a golden handshake of more than €1 million for Rody Molloy?

The wasteful spending within the organisation has dogged the constructive work carried out by FÁS for the best part of the last year. The recent report of the Comptroller and Auditor General disclosed further examples of wasteful spending that was almost systemic. A total of €622,000 in expenditure cannot be accounted for during a six-year period. The revelations in the report would be scandalous enough if taken in isolation; however, when combined with the findings of the FÁS internal audit report which came to light late last year, they call into question the oversight and financial control within FÁS. The internal audit report mentioned, among other things, that FÁS spent at least €1 million more than should have been the case on the establishment of the Jobs Ireland website at a cost of €1.7 million.

Operating under the supervision of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the aim of FÁS, as detailed in its 2006 to 2009 strategy, is to conduct business

... in a prudent manner and in accordance with best practice compliance, governance and risk management. Protecting FÁS resources and seeking out value for money in the work we do by achieving the greatest efficiency and effectiveness for the minimal cost.

The strategy goes on to point out that value for money is one of the central tenets and aims of the organisation. I ask the Minster for Enterprise, Trade and Employment how the wanton spending which has taken place could be in line with such lofty and, indeed, laudable ideals. How does spending €9,200 on a car for a raffle which never took place qualify as value for money? We need to ask similar questions, as mentioned earlier in the debate, of the Ministers, Deputies Micheál Martin and Mary Harney who, in their roles as Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, presided over such inefficient use of taxpayers' money.

Who is accountable for such waste of taxpayers' money, money which could be better utilised in further training and development of the 424,000 people currently on the live register? Certainly, not the former director general, Mr. Rody Molloy, who without sufficient legal advice and in breach of the Department of Finance guidelines on severance pay received a golden handshake of more than €1 million at the end of his so-called successful tenure in charge of the organisation.

Why did the former director general, following his resignation from that post, receive a top-up of the equivalent of five years' service, which is at the upper limits of Department of Finance guidelines? Why was legal advice not sought on this serious issue, a matter raised by my colleagues a number of times?

I believe the board should, sooner rather than later, be restructured along the lines proposed in the report of the Committee of Public Accounts. The members of that board failed in their remit and should be removed from their post as opposed to meekly resigning in the coming weeks or months. Once again the actions of a few have coloured the positive work of an entire organisation. People who rely on FÁS for support and education now view its activities with scorn as wasteful spending follows wasteful spending.

What we have is a small circle who believe they are worth every penny and every expense. If it was only FÁS that was guilty of this type of practice, people might not be furious. However, this culture exists in so many areas. It is indicative of a Government and its cronies who are out of touch with the real people of Ireland. How could the Minster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when on radio call the golden handshake "a few pounds"? How can a body which receives very substantial State funding shell out more than €20,000 for a Minister to visit race meetings? How could a former Minister of State become the head of one of the most powerful lobby groups in the country before his desk is barely cleared?

What we need is a change in Government and a change in the way government does its business. I wholeheartedly support this motion to get FÁS back working for the people on the live register, not the elite who would use it as a slush fund.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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In the limited time available to me I wish to address my comments to the Minister of State present in the House, Deputy Billy Kelleher. I suggest to him, as the Minister of State with responsibility in this area, that he has a particular responsibility to bring the Secretary General of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to account and to ask him what he was doing about the four departmental representatives on the board, namely, representatives from the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Finance, Education and Science and Social and Family Affairs. He must ask whether they met as a collective group and whether they conferred. This was body that was receiving €1 billion in funding. We are not speaking of a small semi-State agency but of a massive organisation, as already outlined by Deputy Sherlock.

What type of co-ordination existed on the part of the Secretary General? It is easy, politically, for us to lambaste the Minister of the day and for us to perhaps refer to some members of the board. However, if a board is in the position whereby the truth is being withheld from it, it has limited capacity to act. I recall that when I was Minister for Enterprise and Employment, previously Minister for Labour, there was a much tighter and closer understanding between the Department of Labour, civil servants and some sections of what was then AnCO, which was as Deputy Mattie McGrath stated FÁS's previous incarnation.

I understand that talks and hearings on this issue will be ongoing between the Committee of Public Accounts, other relevant committees and the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Science. It behoves the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, as the Minister with political responsibility in this area to find out where was the management breakdown in his Department that allowed these things to happen. What is the point of ministerial appointments to boards of an organisation if such people do not act as a watchdog for the primary Department and other Departments? This is a failure of public service. The relevant sections in the senior echelons of public service in this country who have served us well need to start looking into their dark souls and to ask themselves hard questions. How is it even acceptable that someone who has so manifestly failed in public management, Mr. Rody Molloy, was so outrageously rewarded?

I listened to the Minister of State's contribution and read carefully the opening statement made by my colleague, Deputy Shortall and the inadequate response from the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, in regard to the terms and legalities of the settlement on which we will not finish our deliberations tonight. There are other institutions within this House where this will be pursued. I am of the view that the law was not complied with. Contradictory statements have been given on a number of occasions, not by the Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, but by others with political responsibility. This is an issue that will not go away. We will, when the Bill to appoint the new board of FÁS comes before the House, have an opportunity to ask questions about its formation, nomination, role and accountability to the primary Department. The Minister of State may not hold his current portfolio for much longer or may, perhaps, hold it for another two years. He has a responsibility not to look at the departed board members but to ask why it was that a Department like his with such a large budget and an extraordinary amount of money going to FÁS, systematically failed to detect that something wrong was happening at management level. The Minister of State has a responsibility to ask the Secretary General of his Department what was going on. I suggest, for example, that he ask him where was the monthly report from the civil servant from his Department on the board of FÁS and whether the representatives of the other three Departments forward a monthly report to his Department. Were they co-ordinated? What was the State getting from the participation of those people on the board?

I am focusing in deference to time on this narrow point. There are many other comments I could make on many other areas but time does not permit me to do so. I want to deliberately return the spotlight to the Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, as the political person with responsibility in this area for which he is accountable to this House and to the Secretary General of the Department and officials from that Department and the other three Departments who sat side by side with the external social partner appointees. I ask the Minister of State to come back into this House and give us a report in that regard at some stage.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Deputy Quinn spoke about the restructuring of the board of FÁS. I have received queries from people concerned about the worker-director element of that board. They believe that the reduction in the number of appointees will result in worker-directors no longer having a place on the board. I believe that would be a retrograde step. At the end of the day, public accountability should ensure the greatest possible level of scrutiny on the part of any board. This will only happen if worker-directors are appointed to boards. That is not to suggest that other appointees will not do a good job. I believe the new board, when in place, will be a good one but only because the previous one was so negligent in its responsibilities. Regardless of who we knew on that board, who was a member of it or what reputation they had, the board was negligent and disgraceful. To say information was withheld is only half an argument. It must be stressed that while the board could have asked what was going on it did not do so.

The 400,000 plus people on the live register are the ones suffering in this scandal. They are seeking to upskill to ensure they will have a place in the new market and they are not being facilitated. I agree with Deputies Upton and Sherlock that the people working at the coalface of the FÁS organisation are the people we turned to in the 1980s and early 1990s when times were bad. They were the people who gave workers hope and who had the contacts to ensure people could get back into work. They are still the people we should look to. A type of paralysis has come over the FÁS organisation, a paralysis brought about by the appalling conduct of a few at the top, all of whom were, in one guise or another, appointed by this Government.

I acknowledge we are concentrating tonight on the Dublin-based organisation. The Minister already knows about senior managers from FÁS in Cork standing shoulder to shoulder with Ministers outside churches giving out Fianna Fáil election literature. That does nothing for public confidence in the organisation. On the other hand, we hear of minor officials in local authorities, grade 3 entry level staff, being told they are not to canvass. There is something seriously wrong, and it is a worrying development.

There is a direct connection that must be broken and the only way to do that is to get this Government out of office and keep it out for at least three terms so we can ensure that the golden circle is broken up. We should be here tonight to discuss how we will get 400,000 back to work and how best to serve them. The State training agency, FÁS, is the agency we should look to for that. Instead, the cloud that now hangs over it does not allow it to develop to its full potential as an organisation.

The history of politics is littered with the gravestones of Governments who have tripped over hurdles they have made for themselves, Governments whose tenures become crystalised in a single symbol. For Margaret Thatcher the hated poll tax became a symbol of distrust for the common man, a lightning rod for discontent in England. Charlie Haughey will be forever known as the man with the Charvet shirts. For this Government, incompetence and waste has exaggerated all that was wrong with a society based on greed. The perception of a golden circle will be how this Government will be remembered.

The Government has rightly been saddled with that perception. It has allowed too many people to dip their snouts in the public trough. Now, as we move closer to an election, the Government's rear end moves ever closer to the bacon slicer and Fianna Fáil and the Green Party know it.

As Deputy Quinn explained, the Government, even at this late stage, must take drastic action to accept its share of responsibility for the errors that were made and show some sign that it has learned from past mistakes. To do that, we must ensure that those who desperately need the support of the Government get it.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I congratulate Deputy Shortall on tabling this motion. I want to go back to the issues surrounding the severance package given to Rody Molloy and the €1.1 million golden handshake he received. I refer to the contribution of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, and the contribution of the Minister of State, Deputy Billy Kelleher, tonight. Serious issues remain to be addressed and there is a great deal of wooliness surrounding the questions of why the money was paid and why no legal advice was sought. The Minister's contribution last night cast more doubt over the issue rather than clarifying the situation.

Deputy Shortall asked last night if he resigned or not. If he did resign, why was he given the €1.1 million golden handshake? Why was he entitled to a severance package if he resigned? If he was sacked, why would he have had a right to the severance package? How was he entitled to this package and why did the Tánaiste not seek legal advice?

The Minister of State said the Tánaiste acted under section 6(3) of the Labour Severance Act. That Act relates to severance.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It is the Labour Services Act.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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It related to the establishment of FÁS.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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My understanding was that it was the Labour Severance Act. One way or another, regardless of the title of the Act, there is still a huge degree of confusion surrounding the issue.

Last night, the Tánaiste said: "I can assure the House that the decision taken to agree to the addition of years to his pension entitlement was not taken lightly. Securing his departure in a non-litigious manner was considered to be in line with the best interests of both the FÁS organisation and the taxpayer." She continued that if the board of FÁS had dismissed Mr. Molloy, court action might have resulted. The Tánaiste then mentioned legal advice, stating: "I want to make it clear to the House that in relation to the issue of legal advice in respect of the veracity [I do not know why "veracity" is the word used there] of any possible legal action by Mr. Molloy, this did not arise as, although present, concern over legal action was not the deciding factor." Previously, however, the Tánaiste referred specifically to legal action twice. She spoke about securing the departure in a non-litigious manner and then said it might have ended up in court action being taken. Despite the concern about those two central issues, she did not seek legal advice. In the interests of clarity and public probity, we must know why legal advice was not sought in that context.

Deputy Shortall has called for the publication of the text of the agreement reached with Mr. Molloy and I concur fully in that regard. We are talking about €1.1 million of taxpayers' money, with all of the other waste that went before it, including €622,000 that was unaccounted for, €9,000 spent on a car that was never delivered, €600,000 on a television advertisement that was never screened and more than €1 million spent on a website. The Dell workers in my constituency who are turning to FÁS now to address their interests see such waste going on at the same time.

The Government's contribution to the debate tonight raises more questions than it answers. There is a much bigger issue than the best interests of FÁS, the only thing that appeared to drive the Tánaiste's actions. We are not just talking about a sizeable amount of taxpayers' money, but the whole issue of public morality and credibility. People are watching the dishing out of €1.1 million to someone who failed entirely in the job he was given and they are seeing the same happening to those at the top level of banking. Very significant amounts are handed out at the upper levels without even legal advice while, at the same time, at the lower levels people are losing their houses and jobs and the smallest amounts of money are being chased.

I sat on a steering group for a scheme for people with brain injuries. A local representative of FÁS also sat on that steering group and that person was exemplary in his work on that group. He had to account for every penny FÁS put into the scheme. I was impressed by how the system worked at that level. Those people have been let down by their masters at the top of the organisation, as we have been let down by those at the top of the political system and those working in banks have been let down by the people at the top of their sector. It is about time there was a complete cultural change. By signing off on the €1.1 million golden handshake, the Tánaiste has rubber stamped the Government's support for bad behaviour in high places. It is time for a total change in culture.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Following the debate of the last two days, I would like to make a few points on the matters raised by the Deputies, and about the duties and responsibilities of FÁS. Since May 2008, the Tánaiste has quickly taken appropriate and effective action as soon as issues emerged about FÁS. It was the Tánaiste who requested the Comptroller and Auditor General to consider undertaking a special review of FÁS, and he acceded to that request. A copy of the report that deals with the examination of advertising and promotion in FÁS, and which forms part of the investigation, was laid before this House and is now the subject of examination by the Committee of Public Accounts. I understand from the Comptroller and Auditor General that a further report will be issued in the coming months, which will examine the arrangements for internal control and governance that existed in FÁS.

In November 2008, after initial intense negotiations on the terms of his departure, the then director general tendered his resignation following reports of excessive travel expenditure in the organisation and he has been replaced by a new and exemplary director general. Yesterday, the Tánaiste published the Labour Services (Amendment) Bill 2009, which addresses a number of the recommendations of the Committee of Public Accounts regarding the size and composition of the board of FÁS. The Bill also includes a specific provision designed to provide a level of protection for so-called whistleblowers, which will further facilitate identification of any future irregularities in the organisation.

Last month the live register fell by 16,500 people. While it is traditional for the live register to fall in September, the level of decrease compared to last year suggests an improvement in the unemployment figures. However, 423,600 people remain on the live register and the Government is committed to continuing to provide these individuals with the necessary assistance during this difficult period.

To respond to the increasing numbers of people on the live register, the Department is working closely with the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Education and Science to ensure that appropriate responses are developed and put in place to meet the up-skilling needs of those who are losing their jobs or facing uncertain employment prospects. It is the response to that situation which should now be our focus, particularly the response to the situation of the new unemployed, who may need a different, tailored response to that on offer.

FÁS employment services, together with the local employment services, have put in place measures to double their job search support capacity to cater for the rise in referrals from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. In addition, the employment subsidy scheme will protect up to 27,400 vulnerable but viable jobs in the manufacturing or internationally traded service sectors that are currently engaged in exporting. This scheme will involve the payment of a subsidy to firms to retain an agreed level of jobs. Enterprise Ireland is currently considering the applications under this scheme. In time, the Tánaiste will review the scheme to ensure that it has maximum impact on sectors that are strategically important for our economy.

I would like to endorse what Deputy O'Sullivan said about the work of the majority of the staff in FÁS. I have had the pleasure of working with some of the FÁS staff in her region on their application for the globalisation fund. They were exemplary and completely in touch with the needs of those who are unemployed. I fully agree that they have been let down by the minority of senior management who have done this to the organisation. We in this House owe it to all the FÁS staff to endorse the work that they are doing on a daily basis, and to endorse their probity and commitment, not just to the organisation, but to the people that they serve. It has been difficult enough for them to face the increasing number of unemployed, but it has been unfair to have to face these other challenges. I am glad to see that most speakers in this debate are in agreement with these views.

The Tánaiste has responded quickly and effectively to issues relating to FÁS as they presented themselves. She has at all times worked to ensure that the organisation can refocus to address the key challenge of unemployment through its job search, training and employment programmes in this changing economic environment.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Shortall and Deputy Penrose, our spokesperson on enterprise, trade and employment, for putting this motion before the House. I would like to share time with Deputy Shortall for the last five minutes.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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During the recent referendum campaign, I was struck by the number of times that FÁS employees stepped out from the shadows to speak to me, while at the same time looking over their shoulder, possibly in case somebody from Fianna Fáil was listening in. They were people in the middle ranks of FÁS doing their jobs and anxious to provide services to the 400,000 people who are unemployed. They felt ashamed, perturbed and angry to the point of despair at what had happened to the organisation. Person after person identified a feeling among staff in FÁS that it is essentially an organisation which, although a public service organisation, has heavy political influences, particularly from Fianna Fáil, that make it a by-word for the sort of crony capitalism and crony public service that nobody in this country wants or can afford.

The organisation was spending around €1 billion in public money at a time when this country had practically full employment. Now that we have a massive and growing unemployment problem, it does not seem to be able to turn around and drop the things that it was doing, many of which were generated by an excess of funds in the organisation, and start spending every penny wisely in enabling and empowering people to get back into the jobs market and to become employed again. At the moment, FÁS seems to be like the Titanic. We know the iceberg is there, we know FÁS is there, but the Minister and her Ministers of State seem unable to confront the enormity of the task that faces them on behalf of taxpayers and citizens in this country to give hope and opportunity to those 426,000 people who are unemployed.

FÁS took over from the VECs whole areas of apprenticeships and apprentice related training. Now that we have many qualified apprentices with nothing to do, we have a FÁS organisation which is sclerotic and unable to respond and give hope to people. The Labour Party has put forward a series of proposals about graduate placement schemes, graduate internship and graduate opportunity schemes. The Minister gave herself a pat on the back last night, and her response and that of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs and the Minister for Education and Science, is to create a vague and unspecified 2,000 places or opportunities. This is the sum total of her response to the desperate situation that pertains to people who have graduated and qualified to become teachers, plumbers, carpenters and so on. They were educated with an expectation that they would find employment in this country and now find that they cannot do so. That is the biggest challenge facing FÁS, and that is why people are so angry at the revelations that have emerged.

Mr. Molloy was enabled with a departure package of about €1 million, having acknowledged in a public interview that his actions were inappropriate. We were told that this was provided on legal advice. As my colleague, Deputy Shortall, asked, where was the legal advice? We know the Minister for Finance is a senior counsel, something he mentions frequently. He signed off on the package, as pointed out by the Minister, Deputy Coughlan. However, it does not seem to have crossed his mind that in saying adios to Mr. Molloy, the taxpayer, in a country where money has become a very scarce commodity - particularly with regard to public funds - might have sought some value for money.

The people who have served on the audit board of FÁS have spent a significant amount of time over the past year and a half trying to get to the core of the 22 or so issues - the ones we know about - that have arisen with regard to FÁS spending. It is important that the Minister confirm that all of that audit work will be allowed to be completed when she introduces the new legislation. The former director general of the IMF has said that when it goes into a country it knows that unless the government of the day is prepared to look in the eye the senior people in the country and tell them things must change, reform will not happen. When the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, introduces the new legislation, will there be a full inquiry into all of the audits that have been conducted and the others that are to come, inquiring into unoccupied premises where vast amounts of public money were spent throughout the country, and will they be published?

There has been ferocious criticism from some quarters about the nature and size of the FÁS board which was so big it was unwieldy. It reflected the times of social partnership and, in particular, the times and influence in the organisation of the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern. However, if the social partnership element goes, will we, instead of having a social partnership board, have a crony capitalist Fianna Fáil board in its place? That would be worse. Will we end up with the friends of Fianna Fáil, with a few Green Party people added in for decoration, dominating the new board? If that is not to be the case, I challenge the Minister to take her nominations to the relevant sub-committee of the Dáil and to have the people who have agreed to or applied to serve on the board subject to an oversight process. This would be a friendly but fair and rigorous oversight process, as is found in most parliaments, particularly in the United States. If we are to continue to spend €1 billion on FÁS, we must ensure the people on the board are not the usual friends of Fianna Fáil but people who are prepared to turn the Titanic around in the interest of the 400,000 people who are unemployed.

As Albert Reynolds said: "It is the little things that catch you out." The board gave a package, but forgot to mention the car. What is a car worth €20,000 or so to the people at the top of FÁS? That amount is so small in the grand scheme of things for an organisation with a budget of €1 billion. However, for taxpayers who were happy to pay their taxes and who hoped their taxes would contribute to education and help the unemployed get a second chance, the car was the last straw.

I am sorry the Minister of State is not accompanied by the Minister, Deputy Mary Coughlan, and by the former Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Micheál Martin, the man who commissioned so many reports he will have a longer row of library shelves in the British Museum than any other Irish politician, and by the previous Minister, Deputy Mary Harney, who travelled the world with FÁS and who has always been rather harsh about the public sector. However, when she was involved with FÁS, she never had anything critical to say about it. If Fianna Fáil can turn the culture around, if the Minister can subject her nominees to honest and rigorous assessment, we may then feel that Fianna Fáil cronyism has been contained to some small extent.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Over the past two nights this debate has centred on the need for accountability and proper corporate governance in one of our key State agencies, FÁS, and on the highly questionable deal reached with the former director general, Rody Molloy. During the debate many speakers highlighted different areas of concern with regard to FÁS. Different aspects of the FÁS operation remain which will be subject to scrutiny by both the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts. Unfortunately, there is material there for many months to come.

I want to address in particular the golden handshake. However, before coming to that I want to refer to a particular aspect of the organisation which is of concern to me, namely, the top-heavy management structure within FÁS. I urge the Tánaiste to devote some attention to this area. When FÁS was created in 1988, it was recognised that it needed to be a regionalised organisation. The services needed to be on the ground in all counties. The management structure was organised to provide for a director general, a deputy director general and 13 directors, ten of whom were to be in the regions and three of whom would be in head office. That amounted to 15 senior staff. At this stage the management structure of FÁS consists of 36 senior staff. It now has a director general, seven deputy director generals, ten regional directors, and 18 head office directors. One might say FÁS is a classic example of an organisation with too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

What is even more important is that the key problem with FÁS is that the emphasis has switched from regional services on the ground to the corporate organisation in head office. The corporate body, endowed with a large budget, has enjoyed lavish entertainment and first-class travel for the members themselves, their wives, Department officials, Ministers, some journalists and various other hangers on. In the past four years alone, FÁS spent almost €48 million on suspect promotion and advertising. In the process it completely lost sight of its core function, the provision of employment and training services for people seeking work. In short, FÁS members lost the run of themselves. Nobody, whether executives, board members or Ministers shouted stop.

It is probably not surprising that Ministers did not seek accountability from FÁS, given their complete lack of accountability to this House and the taxpayers in respect of the deal with Mr. Molloy. Significant questions remain to be answered by the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach. Not only should Members on this side of the House demand answers, but the Green Party, if it has any sense of probity, should also demand answers before voting on this motion.

It may come as a surprise to some in Fianna Fáil that Ministers cannot do what they wish. They are obliged to adhere to the law and are not above it.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody said they were above the law. The Deputy's accusation against me is wrong.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The laws relating to Mr. Molloy's deal are the Labour Services Act 1987, the Superannuation and Pensions Act 1963, the Department of Finance guidelines, the code of practice covering directors of public bodies and the tax Acts. Senior civil servants and Ministers had clear responsibilities in respect of the law. We deserve answers.

In the absence of answers I put these key questions to the Tánaiste again tonight. Why was no legal advice sought on the deal with Mr. Molloy when it was freely available from the Office of the Attorney General? Why was it indicated there was a threat of legal action, when later the Taoiseach denied this? Did Mr. Molloy resign or was he sacked? If he resigned, as is claimed, why was he given a generous severance package? What was the legal basis for the extra €1.2 million given to Mr. Molloy, when this was explicitly precluded under the Department of Finance's guidelines? Why did senior officials in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment not consult these guidelines? Given that all of this was impermissible under the law, why was Government approval not sought for this deal?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It was not necessary. The Department of Finance signed off on it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please allow the Deputy to finish.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Allow me to finish, please. I have one minute left. This is important and we need answers on this. Was this point, about the need for Government approval, raised by senior officials in the Department of Finance and what was that Minister's response? In not obtaining Government approval, was this a deliberate attempt to keep this sweetheart deal from the Green Party?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is nonsense.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why was there no resolution from the board, as was required?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I must put the question.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Who sanctioned the company car? I have half a minute. Who and on what basis was the additional lump sum paid and how were the tax implications dealt with? It matters that public servants and Ministers adhere to the law and tell the truth. It matters to the public and it matters to those of us on this side of the House. The question tonight is: does it-----

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I have never told an untruth in this House, never.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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-----matter to the Green Party? I commend this motion to the House.